Woody Allen: "Give yourself not your material..."

[Phil]

http://www.sandpapersuit.com/2008/04...ot-having.html

Interesting comment from Woody Allen on stand-up comedy...

-----

It's all about being a funny person, not about having funny material. Give yourself not your material...

Don't make the mistake of falling into the material trap...You should think of it in terms of you as a funny person. To the degree that you're a funny person, that's how much you'll succeed, not to the degree of the funny material that you have...

The audience wants an intimacy with the person. They want to like the person and find the person funny as a human being.

The biggest trap that new comedians fall into is trying to get by on the basis of their material. Trying to buy or write material and hiding behind it and not getting out there and just opening themselves up."

[Phil]

Since we're all wannabe-alt-comics, so we're quite material based, I'm wondering how many of you agree with this?

[Vercetti]

I think he's got a point, the personality sells the whole thing. But then again I've never bought someone's album or DVD because I liked their personality. If there's no substance to it I lose interest, personality or not.

But coming off well onstage IS a big part of it.

[SeanX3]

When I think of the comedians I like most, most of them seem quite relaxed and giving of themselves on stage, but not all. I guess there are no hard and fast rules, but hiding behind material could hardly be a good strategy. My greatest fear about getting up is falling apart/forgetting my stuff, or having to deal with a moron heckler. But I'd rather go down in flames than be super slick because I'm dead inside. The comedians I like the least are the most controlled, and have the least chinks in their armor.

[pg13]

There are comics who get by on elite material but aren't necessarily funny people (Steven Wright? Maybe even Woody himself?) and there are tons of people who have both (like Zach Galifianakis).

Now, tell me how wrong I am...

OK.

Think about Steven Wright for a second. Describe Steven Wright to someone unfamiliar with him...to someone not intimately familiar with every variety of stand-up comedian.

Yeah, you're going to mention his precise one-liners...and yeah, you're going to mention his occasional flights into surreal storytelling...

...but you're also going to talk about his deadpan delivery, his schlubby appearance...and how despite putting almost no effort into it...he comes across as quite lovable.

The PERSONALITY of Steven Wright is hilarious. The comedic persona he presents--he's emotionless but somehow on the verge of a breakdown, he's completely uncaring about what others think about him but at the same time entirely needy in justifying his actions. He's NOT just a joke telling machine--he's a completely valid, three-dimensional character that is defined by the very things he's NOT doing that so many others do. He proves the charisma of the underdog...of the underplayed...

The same with Mitch Hedberg--the audience loved Mitch...they thought HE was funny (and his material is what he was funny with...)

The same, believe it or not, with Dane Cook--the audience loved Dane...they thought HE was funny (despite, at various times in his career, not really having much actual material to be funny with...)

...and Zach is, of course, the same as well. There are times when Zach is at the piano that the audience laughs in anticipation of the next joke he looks like he's about to say...allowing Zach to look back at the piano and wait to surface again in a moment or two. The audience loves Zach...they find him funny...

Woody's not arguing against having good material--as Woody himself had GREAT material as a stand-up. He's pointing out that good material isn't enough...that audiences don't react in a vacuum to material...they react to the whole package being presented to them. (This is one of the problems with listening to nothing but random comedy clips on satellite radio--you get jokes, but unless you know the performer in question, you lose the context...)

pg--Besides, cherry picking this quote from Woody's assessment of stand-up comedy forgets the context it was given...as a reaction to the stand-up comedy scene of WOODY'S experience...when there were more generic comics, buying generic jokes and not writing from their own heart or expressing their own comedic voice, hoping that lightning will strike them randomly. The "rebel comics of the 50's & 60's", thanks Gerald Nachman, have pretty much eradicated the particular breed of comic that Woody was specifically commenting on. It IS still good advice...but it doesn't REALLY mean what people are making it SEEM to mean, when they take it out of the context which it was given.--pacific northwest

[Phil]

I wonder how old that quote is? Who's buying jokes anymore?

I'm jealous of the guys who can just make people laugh by being on stage. These guys are often the more established ones with existing notoriety and fans.

But I've seen way too many guys just "act" funny and have little material...some are quite successful and get laughs, but cheap laughs IMO.

[dan telfer]

I agree. Sure it doesn't account for really conceptual and character comedians, blah blah blah. I don't think you can get by without creating and honing material, but this is indeed the core of what makes someone a memorable personality onstage. For me anyway. I would not have gotten into stand-up comedy if I were not inspired by personalities first.

[pg13]

I wonder how old that quote is?

The quote is taken from an interview done with Woody by Larry Wilde--it is included in the "Woody Allen on Comedy" CD (put out by Laugh.com...you can still find used copies on Amazon from time to time...and I'm sure it's available for download. )

It is also found in "Great Comedians Talk About Comedy" book by Larry Wilde...which was updated in 2001 to include an interview with Jerry Seinfeld (and is also often available via Amazon.com)...but was originally copyrighted in 1968! So the interview with Woody most likely took place before then.

That makes sense, as Woody's stand-up career was a very short and specific period of his life--from 1962 to 1968.

Again...context is important.

Here's a different quote from the same interview.

How would you describe your humor?
"I come out and tell jokes. That's how I would actually describe it. I do the same thing that Henny Youngman does...Bob Hope. They come out and tell jokes and I come out and tell jokes. I may construct my stories a little differently. Henny Youngman's jokes may be less related to one another than mine, but we are all comedians doing jokes."--Woody Allen

That's not the voice of someone who is "anti-material."

pg--Has the book.--smugville

[nixonjames]

I wonder how old that quote is? Who's buying jokes anymore?

First off I think he's making the distinction that there's a difference between comics who's got a well established and personal voice/persona v. good storytellers.

As for bought jokes, I'd venture to guess that every comic that's taping a CCP has at least 2 jokes bought n paid for. In recent discussions with an older comic in Boston this seems to be a pretty standard practice to this day for comic's taking a national stage.

[pg13]

As for bought jokes, I'd venture to guess that every comic that's taping a CCP has at least 2 jokes bought n paid for. In recent discussions with an older comic in Boston this seems to be a pretty standard practice to this day for comic's taking a national stage.

Wow. I think you're REALLY off base there, Tex.

I can start listing the comics who are friends of mine who have done CCPs who I know did only material that they wrote and developed...and who didn't buy ANY jokes (much less at least two.)...so you're definitely wrong about it being "every comic that's taping a CCP."

...and I don't think it's nearly as prevalent at that level as you've been lead to believe.

Does Bruce Vilanch help non-comedian celebrities and award show hosts? Yes. Did Eddie Murphy use writers to help him with "Raw", did Chris Rock use writers to help him with "Bigger & Blacker"...yes and yes. Do writers craft the opening monologues of most late night talk shows? Yes.

...but I think you'll find that of modern, active stand-up comedians...few of them have "bought" material.

pg--Either that or I've been working too damn hard.--exhaustedville

[JuanCarlos]

David Spade has said (not admitted, since that would betray some sort of guilt over it) that he walks up to comics after their performances and offers them a few grand for a completed bit they just did.

Whitney Cummings has talked about writing joke for Larry the Cable Guy. I've heard a bunch of comedians talk about buying/selling material on comedy podcasts, I don't see it as any sort of stigma or even a bad thing. But it does lead to less personal material and it usually comes from comedians I'm not that interested in.

[pg13]

...and I know that Ron White buys material.

I'm certainly not saying it doesn't happen. I just tend to think that the days of comics buying their material from joke writers is behind us...and that most performers tend to be the authors of their own material.

pg--Could be wrong, but I don't think I am...certainly not based on my experiences.--bethedgingland

[JuanCarlos]

I dunno, what I get is that it's usually done out of necessity when a comedian is juggling too many projects to work out bits and transitions and narratives on a comedy stage. Like when Jeff Garlin helped John Stewart form his first hour.

As for the personality vs material, both are equally important. And they tend to help each other out to the point you know you're doing it right when you don't know when one starts and the other ends, in my experience.

"You play around with it, I don't play around with it always in an intellectual way, I do it instinctively and I get on the stage and because I am, I really am naturally funny, it comes from instinct..."

-Garry Shandling as shown in Judd Appatow's old interview tapes on Marc Maron's WTF Podcast.

[pg13]

None of the people we're talking about are doing CCPs, which is what Tex was saying...

The people that we're talking about--Spade, LTCG, Ron White, Jon Stewart, Chris Rock, Eddie Murphy--are also not full-time or exclusively stand-up comics (maybe Ron White would be considered...) I mean, Billy Crystal depends on Bruce Villanch...but Billy's not on the schedule for a CCP.

pg--Has sold a joke to another performer...and that performer did it on a Comedy Central Presents...but I tend to think that's the exception, not the rule.--weirdthatijustremembereddoingthatburgh

[JayP7]

I'd agree in so far as I don't think Woody's saying you shouldn't try to write great material. I'm sure he'd agree that you should ALWAYS be writing great material. I think (which is almost the same) he's saying you have to be a comedy machine. After a couple of years almost ANYBODY can come up with 5-10 decent minutes of material. And honed enough that 5-10 minutes can probably get you somewhere... for awhile. But then you stop growing. And all you'll be is a guy who can pooooosibly make the crowd laugh, and is impossible to see more than once. That's not a comedian. It's like how Patton says something to the effect of "Some guys who say they've been doing comedy 20 years have really just been doing their first year 19 more times".

I always think its weird when guys at mics repeat their stuff a bunch. It's like they think this is the exact sequence of jokes they're going to be saying on comedy central or Letterman someday. They juuuuust need to work, it hone it, get it perfect and they're on their way. They'll never have to write another sentence.

But then I'm a bit of a nut in that I don't really much enjoy repeating material anyway.

[Buckles_B]

Stage presence (which I think includes "likeability"), is in my eyes, the Yang to material's Yin. Both can do half a job, and both are necessary to reach a level of "greatness." It's like arguing who is more important on a comic book team, the writer or the artist. It's moot. They are one.

I also used to feel that comics who repeated the same act over and over were making a mistake or *gasp* even lazy... but recently it occurred to me that repeating material is a good way to build stage presence. Once the words are second nature, everything else opens up. Or you get bored and start phoning it in. I think that's where the discipline comes in, doing that material you are tired of, and using the stage time to perfect a gesture, a look, an act out, whatever.

In this way, I feel like I took a mis-step early on by worshipping the creation of new material. I was always working on a new five, and always having to be careful to get the wording right, etc. I dumped a lot of time into the writing side, and it showed in my performances - a bit mechanical, a lot of my friends told me to "loosen up." How could I relax though, when I was trying to perfectly deliver a precisely worded 5 minute speech that was written a few days before every time I went up?

In hindsight, I wish I'd put about half of that effort into stage presence.

I thought I was doing the more strenuous thing by churning out lots of new material- but I'm starting to realize - repeating the same bit for the 20th time and delivering it like you just thought of it... that's much more strenuous than writing new jokes. At least for me.

So lately I've been going the other way. Less new material, less concern for exact wording, and just working the charm onstage. Riffing, body language, being in the moment.

Anyways, those are just some thoughts.

Joel

[Bucky_Sinister]

Since we're all wannabe-alt-comics, so we're quite material based, I'm wondering how many of you agree with this?

Not all of us.

I do agree with Woody. I see a lot of comics tell jokes that have no point of view, nothing personal to them, and reveals nothing greater. My favorite comedians are deeply personal.

[Inappropriate Thesaurus]

Both are important. Material is more important if you see this as a profession. The debate here is basically talent vs. skill (i.e. being a funny person = tallent, writing good material = skill). The best comics have everything of both. The 'just be yourself' mentality can certainly add trancendance to your act as an art form, but having amazing material is the ship which delivers your personality to the audience.

The audience only really cares about your personality for the first ten or fifteen minutes (less than that for people they've never heard of). In the context of showbusiness, you can't replace an hour of material with an hour of charm. At a campfire or the bus station or your neighbor's bat mitzvah, it's a different story. But in a comedy club... all the legends have material that holds up in written form...

[nixonjames]

I get what you're saying pg but I've been working with some older comics in Boston and one of them in particular had 2 jokes in 2 originally boston based comics who had CCP's this past season.

But 2 jokes, and they were probably bought with a dinner. I'm not suggesting that it's the same level as a someone like Joan Rivers, Ron White, etc who does far more work and needs a writing crew.

And... 2 jokes in a 30min CCP is less than 2%. So I'm not suggesting comics doing CCP are using writers. I'm just saying after hearing about a few from around here and talking to some older comics, it sounds like it's not uncommon for there to be a joke or two that came from an old guard from your locale.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.
I agree. I think aside from the biggest national comedic personas everyone is creating essentially all of their material. But I wouldn't say 100%. Just 99.

[pg13]

I think aside from the biggest national comedic personas everyone is creating essentially all of their material. But I wouldn't say 100%. Just 99.

You should tell that to the guy that said this.

As for bought jokes, I'd venture to guess that every comic that's taping a CCP has at least 2 jokes bought n paid for. In recent discussions with an older comic in Boston this seems to be a pretty standard practice to this day for comic's taking a national stage.

The reason I'm nitpicking this is because it's a pretty big leap to go from "I heard a Boston comic say that two of his jokes ended up on the CCP's of two Boston comics" to "EVERY comic that does a CCP has paid for at least two of the jokes they've done."

Again, I've got friends who have done CCP's who have done only their own material, with no purchased material in what they did.

It's risky to take one anecdote and then make a blanket statement about how that's how "EVERYONE" does something.

pg--The joke that I sold to a comic who later did that joke on a CCP, I sold for a 25 cent bottle of soda. What can I say? I was thirsty!--stilldeepinthesiccness