Are We Too Eager?

[Alex Mac]

Before I begin, forgive me if I ramble or come off overly serious. I am prone to the occasional fit of lucid seriousness.

"...there are a lot of comics now, where no one should be seeing what they’re doing. You’re learning how to do comedy. Why would you want a video posted from your first year in comedy, just so people can write ‘You suck,’ ‘you’re a faggot,’ or ‘don’t quit your day job.’ So I don’t like the idea that there’s a shortcut, and I really don’t think people should be using it. I think people should be working harder behind the scenes, and then put something on the Internet. When I was starting, we always joked about the guy with the great press kit. With the glossy folders and everything prepared— the guy who was worried about the marketing before he was worried about his comedy. And it’s the same way with the Internet; the more you focus on the marketing early on, the less you’re focusing on getting better as a comedian, in my opinion. "

Jimmy Pardo just said that in a recent interview at punchlinemagazine.com. This, combined with comments he has made on Never Not Funny about the younger generation being overzealous, has made me wonder about whether or not this is true and if it is a bad thing.

I think about our little slice of AST right here and wonder about everyone's hopes and aspirations are. I mean, there are a lot of us posting in the section who do so for advice or to combine videos of sets. Comedy is a hard addiction to shake and I am sure many of us have goals in mind. From just wanting to what you enjoy, to wanting a chance to work side by side with your own favorite comedians one day as a peer, etc. These make us, even with our respect for the artform, susceptible to being overzealous.

If I may, like any good self absorbed, needy amateur, offer myself as a case study: I am currently finding that my open mic shows are going much smoother than the ones that I am doing in clubs. The reason is that I simply want to be a part of the community so much and be recognized by my peers as a decent, let alone good, comedian. Heck, it even made me worried to post stuff here. And in both cases, I am worrying about communities that have been nothing but supportive and welcoming. Yet at the same time, it also drives me to be the best I can. To work my sets and do my best to write well. This catch-22 is what makes me keep doing stand up no matter what, while also making me wonder some times if I bite off more than I chew.

Are we too eager? "We" meaning anyone of this newest group of people hoping to become comedians. Is there anything wrong with that? At what point does it affect things negatively?

(Probably when someone posts a thread like this...)

[ASR]

I agree with that quote from Pardo, but I also think this is a brand new age.

Things are extremely different now than they were even 10 years ago.

I don't plan on keeping any of my stand-up videos online for very long, but at this point of time, in such a video-oriented generation, I'm perfectly okay with posting select videos to the internet.

As far as "marketing" goes: The marketing aspect is, to me, just as exciting as the comedy - but I know it's way too early for that. I don't think I'm good enough to really do that sort of thing yet, and, truthfully, I'll probably always have that frame of mind. That's why, for me, I have to find the right time to start portraying myself as serious. It's just that right now is not the time. I've only been doing comedy since January, and I've only been on stage about 15 or so times.

I have more than a few comedian friends who have made themselves those Fan Pages on Facebook and have actually amassed triple digits, but I truly think they jumped the gun on that.

These days, I think it's a lot easier to market yourself, which in turn makes it a lot more difficult to get noticed.

A lot of it is timing. I don't want people to notice me NOW, when I'm not anywhere near the peak of my abilities. That's just not right. It's not even a possibility, but that's not my point.

I also do a lot of video stuff, which will probably just transform into me doing a ton of sketch comedy videos somewhere down the line. I have the same philosophy with that: I don't want any of my videos to get popular yet, because I don't think any of them are any good. The problem is that even something absolutely terrible can get extremely popular, so you really do have to be careful.

Typing this post is the most I've thought about any of this stuff since I started. I made a conscious decision not to worry about marketing or whatever until years and years down the road. I'm focusing on my comedy as an art by itself right now, and I'll focus on the other crap once I'm at least mildly confident that my stuff is of high-enough quality that I can rightfully boast so. So, never.

Pardo is dead on, but we can't ignore the video age. I'm pretty sure that, at the core of it, I do comedy for the instant gratification it gives me and the immediate feedback I can recieve. So, if I can get some more feedback from a video that I can delete later, why not?

[Alex Mac]

I think my concerns are less with the actual video age aspect and more with the mindset and attitude aspect. At what point can an amateur go from saying "I do stand up comedy" to "I am a stand up comedian."? Is it a matter of finally getting paid? That is the point where the amateur part goes away (sort of). Is something more?

At what point does advice from a "young" comedian go from someone stating what they have observed so far to becoming the pretentious prattling of someone who just listen to advice just as much as is willing to dish it out?

I'm beginning to wonder. The larger question is when can our love of comedy get in the way? Can it at all? I mean, if I had not had such a worry about about being accept in Boston, my last sets there would likely have gone better. At what point do we romanticize things and not just focus on the down to earth realities of what we are doing?

[pg13]

...

What?

Here's the pot about to call the kettle black. Ready?

Sometimes, you can over think this shit, people.


Do what you do. As long as you're not taking credit for shit that isn't yours and as long as you're not making it harder for others to do what they do...

And as long as someone else isn't making it harder for you to do what you do, you really don't have to care what they think.

Unless, of course, you're doing comedy because you're looking for love, validation, attention, popularity, to belong, etc. And those aren't the best reasons to do comedy, as all of those will eventually break your heart.

Every so often, there'll be a reflexive internet message board argument on some of the comedy-based message boards about who gets to call themselves a "real" comedian...and who doesn't. Like there's a sorting hat that you put on and it determines if you're a comedian yet.

How do YOU define yourself? What is it that you feel comfortable saying it is that you do?

Should you be humble and respectful of those who may have traveled more miles in their shoes than you? Sure--that's always a good plan. Not everyone does that, of course...and most of those with out of control egos will be taken down a peg eventually.

But if you feel comfortable calling yourself a comedian...then you are. There's no committee or oversight committee going to take that away from you.

pg--Although, there are times when we all wish there was...--seattle

PS--In general, the problem with this whole Stage Time area isn't eagerness...it's a desperate neediness. Almost every question is a variant of "Is it ok if I do this?"

Just fucking do it...and if it works, awesome...and if it doesn't, then you've learned something.

[ErikNielsen]

BELLIGERENT ANSWER

Well, I'm not quite ready. So are you saying you're more ready than me? Is that what you think? Huh?

ACTUAL ANSWER

I guess the question here would be, are you excelling at one step before going on to the next one? I mean, if you think you're no longer an open micer, you'd better be regularly having the best set at the open mics you do. If you think you're ready to move up from seven-minute sets, ask yourself -- when you're on a show with a lot of people doing seven-minute sets, do you stand out? If you're willing to move on from 20 minutes, can you reliably kill at the 20-minute length? Because if you haven't mastered those things completely, you're still at that level. You have to win to move up.

And if you're not at that level, no harm done. Most people at any given level aren't ready to move up. (If they were, they'd be up to the next level already.) And if you've just moved up, soft-pedal the promotion for a bit until you've regained your footing -- the very marketable 20-minute act becomes the unproven 30-minute act. Why would you want to wave that 30 minutes around too much until you were secure with it?

Of course, you have to be honest with yourself when you ask those questions... you KNOW whether you killed, or whether you merely failed to embarrass yourself. You KNOW whether the show where you killed was a fluke, or whether you were performing for a friendly crowd, or whether it happens every time. You may not want to admit it, but you have to know it. And if you don't know, the next step in your development is to develop some self-awareness.

But I will say one thing -- there is no "as long as you're not making it harder for others to do what they do". If you're advertising yourself as something you're not -- "a headliner", "a professional comic", "funny" -- and not holding up your claims on stage, you ARE making it harder for others. You're making it harder for the next act to follow you. You're making it harder for the booker and the venue to put on a successful show. You're making it harder for the audience to enjoy themselves.

[pg13]

But I will say one thing -- there is no "as long as you're not making it harder for others to do what they do". If you're advertising yourself as something you're not -- "a headliner", "a professional comic", "funny" -- and not holding up your claims on stage, you ARE making it harder for others. You're making it harder for the next act to follow you. You're making it harder for the booker and the venue to put on a successful show. You're making it harder for the audience to enjoy themselves.

That's kind of why I put that phrase in my post, Erik.

But what I missed in my last post was that THE INDUSTRY will likely define you...in that, what you're able to get yourself booked as becomes your "class level title"...regardless of what you choose to call yourself. (You can call yourself Pope...that doesn't mean you ARE the Pope. Someone else decides that. Comedy is the same way, just fewer funny hats.)

What bothers me, and I feel it in your post, Erik, is the compulsive obsession with there being a rigidly defined pecking order by which you can measure yourself and others against. You even put it in terms of having to "win to move up"--like leveling up in an RPG or something.

Comics at all levels need to stop worrying so much about what others get to do or get to call themselves. Comedy doesn't have to be a zero-sum competition--where the only way you win is if someone else loses. Bookers love to pit comics against each other and comics fall for it all the time.

(True story: A couple of years ago, I got booked to be the show closer at a road club. I did 50+ minutes, ended on a big laugh, carried myself as a headliner should...and everyone at the venue was happy with the job that I did. Weeks later, a long-time veteran comic called the booker to tell him that he should have never headlined me at that club because, according to the veteran comic, I'm "not a headliner." That veteran comic has continued to make it his personal quest to tell as many bookers as he can not to book me as a headliner...and he BRAGS to other comics that he does this. I have no idea why. I can only guess that he's so obsessed with maintaining his place in the comedy food chain that he's desperate to undercut anyone making their way up the ladder.)

I stick by my advice: Just do what you do. Don't fuck with other people's shit. Don't get caught in the game. Don't think that getting to call yourself a comedian means that you're validated as being special.

Just do what you do. You want to call yourself a comedian? Then go out and prove it. Earn it. And then have the confidence in what you've done to let others call you what they want...and assume that it will be what you've earned.

The point, I feel, is to gain experience to get better as a comic--not just to munchkin your way into getting enough experience points to call yourself a 9th level comedian.

pg--I will, however, high five Erik for pointing out the need, as a comic, to be honest with yourself. Train yourself to have honest "ears"...to honestly know when you're doing good work, to know that you're not actually killing like you'd like to think you are...and that the amount of laughs you're getting right now is fine, but you'll want to work a lot harder to get more and more as you move forward. High five!--seattle

[suavepebble]

If you are under the age of 28 and posting bullshit youtube videos of your nonsense "comedy" then yes, you are too eager. Go piss up a flagpole.

[suavepebble]

Just kidding, guys. You are all hilarious legends.

[ProfessorShutYoMouth]

I don't see a problem with posting videos with the intention of getting feedback from peers about your performance and material.

I guess I'm not really familiar with the comics that Pardo was talking about, but then I stay away from most YouTube "comedy". Is he talking about teenagers who post videos of themselves punching each other in the nuts?

[MarkAgee]

Pardo's talking about open-micers with headshots, press kits and mailing lists.

There's no problem with wanting feedback. The problem is that you guys seem to be seeking/getting only positive feedback. If you want to help anyone on this board, be more of a dick. At least that would be constructive. But then there will be hurt feelings and flame wars, and who would listen to anonymous criticism on the Internet anyway? So why post the vids in the first place? is my point. For funsies, which is fine. Just know that's what you're doing.

[ProfessorShutYoMouth]

I see...it seems kind of similar to people who want to go into acting with no experience and think their first goal should be to get an agent, rather than learn acting.

[Brandon Scott Wolf]

I understand the point you all made about "showing off" open mic appearances and all. I also understand how a comic's first year or two or three are never the prettiest and are usually no where near the performer's true ability.

That said, some people are too eager to get famous and feel that YouTube is the path to success. Granted I do have a few YouTube stand-ups online, I have them because I like seeing the comments from the no-name internet crazies. Some are truly funny. For instance, I posted my very first open mic and one comment was: "You are the unfunniest Jew since Ann Frank. Light yourself on fire you unfunny fucker."

Not only do those comments give me motivation to work harder and learn this craft, but it shows me where I was and where I came from and how far I have progressed.

Every comic is different and every person is different. Are some too eager? Yes. But the video age doesn't have to be about DISCOVER ME DISCOVER ME. As of now, I'm using my stand-ups to see my personal progression.

[Alex Mac]

There's no problem with wanting feedback. The problem is that you guys seem to be seeking/getting only positive feedback. If you want to help anyone on this board, be more of a dick. At least that would be constructive. But then there will be hurt feelings and flame wars, and who would listen to anonymous criticism on the Internet anyway? So why post the vids in the first place? is my point. For funsies, which is fine. Just know that's what you're doing.

I think this is the key to that whole, poorly phrased puzzle that I was asking about, along with Erik's part about honest. The idea that some of this is simply about positive affirmation and that a great deal of it might be self delusion. Mark is right. Here especially, we probably should be frank with each other. If that means we liked something, great. If not, it might not be what we would like to hear but it will help in the long run. Besides, at the risk of sounding corny, if I have to be criticized I could think of no better place than AST.

Rather be shot down by people who enjoy comedy and whom I respect, y'know?

[pg13]

Rather be shot down by people who enjoy comedy and whom I respect, y'know?

Oh, dear. Alex Mac = Captain Carnage.

pg--Whatever happened to him? Oh yeah, Rorschach dropped him down an elevator shaft.--seattle

[Alex Mac]

Wait. What?

(I mean, beyond the Watchmen reference.)

[pg13]

If you have to explain the joke, it ceases to be funny.

Sigh.

http://watchmen.wikia.com/wiki/Captain_Carnage

Last chance before the joke ruining occurs...

Spoiler:  

Like Captain Carnage chose to pretend to be a supervillain because he wanted to get beaten up by superheroes, my joke was to connect that masochism to the fact that you've chosen to put your comedy efforts on-line in order to be criticized by people on AST.

As if you're putting your video online to say "Punish Me!!!"

Whether or not you're truly masochistic isn't the point. I just felt it was a funny connection to make.

pg--Once you figure out what a joke everything is, being The Comedian's the only thing that makes sense.--seattle

[Alex Mac]

Oh, I knew the back story. I just didn't make the jump to

Spoiler:  

masochism.

Maybe I need a break? My brain is clearly not working...

[KevinLee]

I made this video with a friend:
[youtube]bFD4FwnbHUs[/youtube]
(Hand extended, palm up) Sitcom, please!!!
Kevin Lee 317 250 8365

[ErikNielsen]

True story: A couple of years ago, I got booked to be the show closer at a road club. I did 50+ minutes, ended on a big laugh, carried myself as a headliner should...and everyone at the venue was happy with the job that I did. Weeks later, a long-time veteran comic called the booker to tell him that he should have never headlined me at that club because, according to the veteran comic, I'm "not a headliner." That veteran comic has continued to make it his personal quest to tell as many bookers as he can not to book me as a headliner...and he BRAGS to other comics that he does this. I have no idea why. I can only guess that he's so obsessed with maintaining his place in the comedy food chain that he's desperate to undercut anyone making their way up the ladder.

Well, that's obviously crazy. If you delivered, you delivered. And you've been around for a while, anyway -- you were probably working as a feature act or whatnot pretty regularly before then. It's not like you're some open mic kid who calls up a bar and convinces them he's a headlining comic with a big following.

But at the same time, you're talking about "the industry" defining someone's place. Well, I've definitely seen my share of situations where bookers and venues overpromote their lineups, whether it's lying about credits, or calling a guy a headliner (and giving him the requisite 50 minutes) when he's a new guy who clearly doesn't have the material or experience to deliver, or running a bringer show and charging people good money to see a lineup composed largely of gullible open micers.

So who's the "industry" here? To the extent that those people are the "industry", yeah, they're not regulating anything. To the extent that the argument is "the real clubs and industry will take note of who works with those con artists" -- well, maybe they will. Which means it's good advice to avoid those con artists.

And all those things I described -- lying about credits, booking a comic into a spot he/she obviously isn't ready for, doing bringer shows -- they cut both ways. Venues can do all those things, but comics can lie about their credits too. Comics can book themselves into shows they don't deserve and can't carry off. Comics can perform on bringer shows.

And a lot of comics do all those things, and a lot of bookers do all those things, and the net effect is that it makes everything harder for everybody. There's no innocents here -- except the people who avoid getting involved in that kind of excessive promotion.

[punchdrunkblake]

Just fucking do it...and if it works, awesome...and if it doesn't, then you've learned something.

That statement is probably the best advice I've read on here.