How-to perfect a joke?

[Phil]

How do you take a joke from its initial inclination to it's perfected form?

I have a terrible time editing a joke once I've first written it - For some reason I can't get my head back in it. I can make little tweaks, I can remove unnecessary/unfunny elements, but rarely can add tags, and can never rewrite the entire thing.

When I'm "in the zone" of that joke, I need to spend as much time writing it as possible, cause I'll never be "in the zone" of that joke ever again.

My problem is when I sit down to write, I often try to write as many new jokes as possible, rather than spend all night on one joke. I feel that spending an entire night on one joke is inefficient use of my time. But if I could perfect one joke per night...that would be very beneficial.

- How much time do you initially spend on one joke?
- Do you have trouble getting back "in the zone" of a joke?
- Do you recommend spending an entire night on one joke?
- How many times do you normally perform a joke before you're satisfied with it and stop editing it?

[smellyhipster]

I am not the person to be giving you advice because I've been accumulating material and have had no open mic to try it out at for months (seriously, Vegas sucks for newbies). So... I can't answer your questions, but I can post these tips I found from Bill Hicks (especially number 9).

1. If you can be yourself onstage nobody else can be you and you have the law of supply and demand covered.
2. The act is something you fall back on if you can’t think of anything else to say.
3. Only do what you think is funny, never just what you think they will like, even though it’s not that funny to you.
4. Never ask them is this funny – you tell them this is funny.
5. You are not married to any of this shit – if something happens, taking you off on a tangent, NEVER go back and finish a bit, just move on.
6. NEVER ask the audience “How You Doing?” People who do that can’t think of an opening line. They came to see you to tell them how they’re doing, asking that stupid question up front just digs a hole. This is The Most Common Mistake made by performers. I want to leave as soon as they say that.
7. Write what entertains you. If you can’t be funny be interesting. You haven’t lost the crowd. Have something to say and then do it in a funny way.
8. I close my eyes and walk out there and that’s where I start, Honest.
9. Listen to what you are saying, ask yourself, “Why am I saying it and is it Necessary?” (This will filter all your material and cut the unnecessary words, economy of words)
10. Play to the top of the intelligence of the room. There aren’t any bad crowds, just wrong choices.
11. Remember this is the hardest thing there is to do. If you can do this you can do anything.
12. I love my cracker roots. Get to know your family, be friends with them.

[GilGuillotine]

I have the same problem Phil, and just like the smelly hipster, I don't have any experience telling jokes so I'm not really qualified to answer your questions. Just agree with what you said!

I've gone back and tried to add tags to bits that I thought could use them and I always come up short. I feel like, when I'm writing I need to get all my ideas written down asap, because if I don't I'll forget everything and like you said be "out of the zone."

I hope someone with experience has something to say on the matter, because if not the three of us are just gonna be stuck with half finished jokes forever!

[JManderville]

I have been having the problem of having what I think is a great idea, Then reading it and writing on it, and re-writing it, then reading it and re-writing it.. and after like the 15th time I am questioning whether I even think it is funny anymore. I guess my question would be is it ok to have a little doubt in some of you bits but work through them onstage anyways? or just leave them in the dust until you can find the best possible voice/angle to take them in?

[crlygrl]

Couldn't you just write down the idea, perform it, and see how the audience reacts? I'm not a comedian but I'm a marketer and that's the only way we find out if people will be receptive to something... we test it.

[GilGuillotine]

Like I said, I'm not really experienced, but I think you need to at least think your material is funny to perform it on stage. If after reworking it a lot it doesn't seem humorous to you anymore, then drop it. You need confidence in the material to be able to deliver it correctly.

On the other hand, if you still think it's funny but you're not sure if anyone else will find it funny, then you just gotta say screw it and perform. All that matters is what you think. If after a while the joke still isn't getting laughs then maybe you can consider getting rid of it. But that's just my opinion.

[ErikNielsen]

Yeah... I do most of my rewriting on stage. You can try saying the joke to yourself, to make sure there aren't any phrases that just don't sound natural spoken... but as far as tweaking the details goes, that generally has to happen in the moment for me. Of course, sometimes something will come to me while I'm preparing for a show or something, but generally only after I've done the joke a few times and have some clue of its general dimensions.

[Phil]

I'm gonna do a quick *bump* of this thread. Maybe an experienced comedian like Peter could respond?

I'm just so lost when it comes to editing. I know which parts don't work, I just can't get back there and seriously improve it. I'm looking for some tips on doing this.

[ErikNielsen]

Honestly, this is going to sound a bit silly, but I've found that the best thing you can do with a joke that has potential but isn't quite there after a few run-throughs is to drop it for a few months, then try to re-construct it from memory when you feel so inclined.

Odds are, you're going to forget the parts that don't work. It's also an opportunity to revisit the phrasing. And if you're lucky, while you're trying to figure out how exactly this joke went in the first place, you'll also uncover an extra tag or punchline here or there.

The crucial part here is that you can't refer back to your notes, or to the joke as you originally wrote it. All the stuff that's clumsy, or shaky, or unmemorable about the joke is what you want to forget, but if you go after it right away, that stuff's all going to be stuck in your head. Either you'll retain it because "that's how the joke goes", or you'll consciously try to write around it, which frequently leaves you with overwritten material that tries to do too much. And anyway, this is a joke you're frustrated with right now -- you don't want to be around that joke, let alone delve into it.

Whereas if you put the joke away for a few months, your memory will naturally strip away a lot of that stuff -- leaving the part of the joke that's actually worth saving. And when you build it up again, you have a much better idea of the high points you're building around.

At the moment, I'd say that three of my strongest 10 or so jokes right now (Donkey Kong, Wilderness Lore, Horses) went through that process at a relatively early stage in their development, and have emerged much better for it. (The rest are either largely intact from their creation, or have undergone more gradual on-stage changes. I can't recall ever doing any good for a joke which I deliberately set out to re-write while doing it.)

And yes, maybe you won't ever get around to bringing all the jokes back. But for my part, I think that's acceptable. These things have to happen organically. If you're not enthusiastic about bringing a joke back, it's not time to bring it back. And if you never get enthusiastic about it or never remember it after a few months, it probably wasn't a very exciting joke to begin with, and you're probably better served moving on to new stuff.

[pg13]

Currently stuck in an airport...but I think Erik's handling the "experienced comedian" role just fine.

pg--don't listen to me just because I type a lot--norfolk, virginia

[Roadside Phil]

Erik's tips are very similar to mine. For myself, the first draft of a bit is very grounded in reality. Still funny, but it's what really happened. After a couple months, I can look at it and, being further removed from the situation that spawned it, feel freer to embellish on it. That's where the good tags and such come from.

Other than that, just talking it out does a lot of the editing. And I do rehearse in my living room a lot before I put a bit on stage. Saying it a lot takes the stilted "written" quality out of it and makes it more conversational. And I'll sometimes blurt out a tag while I'm at it. Those usually become some of the best laughs in the bit.

And certainly the idea of conservation of words is very important.

[pg13]

I believe that comedy is both organic and crafted.

Sometimes, you have an idea that is funny. Sometimes you notice a unique mental connection between things or ideas. Sometimes, they seem to come fully formed in your mind--and it's just a matter of properly phrasing the idea so that others can efficiently understand what you find funny about it.

Sometimes, however, you are not so instantly inspired. Sometimes, you want to tackle a subject...and there is a process by which you can craft comedy on the subject you want to write material for...and that process may generate very simple immediate ideas or it may take some work to generate deeper, more involved ideas.

Either way, you will always get feedback from when you perform this material for an audience that will inform how you refine your efforts. I find it equally as likely that I will dump weaker parts of a particular bit for efficiency's sake as I will discover extensions and additions to an idea based on the inspiration of a performance in reaction to an audience's response (or the random firings of an adrenaline-fueled creative mind...)

That said, I think most people would describe me as a jokecraft constructionist (as opposed to an improv-based material generator). I like finding the most perfectly efficient way to express an idea so that it lands with the maximum potential impact for the audience. Sometimes, I can craft that out of whole cloth right as I'm first writing material...other times, I have to whittle down from my bloated first efforts through performance.

I generate a ton of material. I'm constantly writing, thinking, working. It is not a struggle for me and it isn't something I have to force myself to do. Your mileage may certainly vary.

The best material and the material I enjoy the most at that moment tends to be what gets performed. There are plenty of jokes that gain perspective from being tried out, abandoned, remembered later, refined and retried.

...and then there's the topical thing--some topical jokes have short shelf life, so you work 'em to death and let 'em go. Others can work...be dropped...and then, some time later, have world events conspire to make them work again (...did anyone else have a "coup in Kyrgyzstan" joke ready, in their back pocket?)

OK...that's a window into my process. I'd never suggest that others should follow that process--but it works for me. And that's what's awesome about comedy...other than Nick Madson'ing your way into infamy, you're pretty much allowed to do anything you want in any way you can manage...

Anyway, here's my answers to Phil's questions:

- How much time do you initially spend on one joke?
Typically, not very long if it is a joke formed by a spark of inspiration. I make a connection that I think is funny--just as I might in conversation--and there it is... Poof!

Even if it is a joke on a topic that I've chosen to tackle, most individual jokes come out pretty fast. Figuring out how they might all work best together seems to take the most time--but even that (thanks to a background in public speaking) tends to come rather easily.

(There's that scene in "Comedian" where George Wallace remembers a time when he thought of a funny idea...and he told Jerry Seinfeld, and Jerry responded by saying "Isn't it this?" and then Jerry retold the same idea in a stronger, more impactful way. I'm not saying I have that level of skill--but I do think that some people have more of a knack for instinctively understanding the economy of comedy.)


- Do you have trouble getting back "in the zone" of a joke?
Can't say that I do, Phil. "In the zone" is basically me being me. My jokes are products of the way I think, I don't seem to have to force myself into some separate way of thinking to get to where my jokes come from... I tend to always be thinking in the same zone as I do when I write--because I'm ALWAYS writing.


- Do you recommend spending an entire night on one joke?
My initial thought is to say "whatever works for you..." which is, of course, the correct answer.

But, honestly, no, I don't "recommend" spending an entire night on one joke.

Comedy is fragile and somewhat ephemeral...and I'd worry about killing it stone dead by overworking it...overwriting it...when what really matters is the telling of the joke and seeing if you're effectively communicating an idea of something funny in your head into the head of someone else and seeing if they too find it funny, the way you've crafted it.

But, if it takes you all night...and you craft marvelous jokes that way...I wouldn't stop doing it that way just because it isn't the process that I use.


- How many times do you normally perform a joke before you're satisfied with it and stop editing it?
Sorry, Phil...but I keep hearing Louis CK's doctor asking him about his eating "habits" when I read this question. Specifically when the doctor asks how long into a meal does Louis feel "full" and stop eating...and Louis scoffs at the idea that he'd stop eating just because he feels full. "The meal's not over when I feel full."

Same here. There's NO point in which I think a joke is "done"--there is no point when it isn't worth further refining based on audience reactions or new thoughts that you may have. Editing, like material generation, is a constant process.

Now, granted...I have plenty of jokes that haven't changed much for some time--jokes that seem to work fine the way I'm telling them. Like glaciers, you don't see them move...but, in fact, they ARE moving. I've changed emphasis in a line reading of a joke I'd had for a few years and found that not only did that make the joke better, but it opened up a new areas the joke could go that it couldn't have gone before...

You can freeze a joke in amber, but that's a first step onto a path of soul-deadening that too many road comics find themselves in--mindlessly regurgitating the same act, the same way, regardless of the circumstances they find themselves in.

You've got to be open to the wondrous possibilities in every moment...and it helps to never be satisfied with what you've created.

pg--"Don't be too proud with this technological terror you've constructed"--back home (still sans luggage, though)

[Phil]

YES!!!! Thanks for another great response, Peter!!

[badinia]

A couple things I do:

If I do a joke once and it doesn't work, I will try it again. The audience might be idiots.
Three times not working and I have to bid it farewell, or else I am an idiot. Not every joke makes it to three, it depends on how bad it bombed and the level of my commitment.

Every tag I've ever written has been onstage.

I usually write jokes in conversation, and then when I've told a story a couple times, I think, maybe that's a joke. I want to develop the discipline to write at a set time and generate stuff, but so far I spend that time sleeping or playing Bejeweled, as far as I can tell.

I keep all my old joke files and I find it fun to see where jokes have come from and where they go. I don't consider ANYTHING untouchable, and I have some jokes that have totally become different jokes than they used to be when they were born, or the joke that grew out of the tag has become better than the original joke.

I used to be depressed by Eddie Izzard's assertion that jokes should never be written down, because I always start with something very much written, but I have assuaged myself with the knowledge that he is a genius and also a dyslexic.

[pg13]

Excellent post, Badinia!

...and you should watch "Believe: the Eddie Izzard Story", Mrs. Jones, because they definitely show Eddie working from notes!

pg

[badinia]

...and you should watch "Believe: the Eddie Izzard Story", Mrs. Jones, because they definitely show Eddie working from notes!

pg

Thanks Peter!

<showoff>

I noticed that when I saw Believe in Noo Yawk!

</showoff>

[pg13]

Thanks Peter!

<showoff>I noticed that when I saw Believe in Noo Yawk!</showoff>

No worries, Virginia!

<one-up>And I noticed that he was using notes when I saw Eddie workshop at the Seattle Rep a year before his most recent US tour...</one-up>



pg--"You will spit on me, You will make me spit"--seattle (with luggage, hooray!)

[badinia]

<one-up>And I noticed that he was using notes when I saw Eddie workshop at the Seattle Rep a year before his most recent US tour...</one-up>

Oh, the show I saw you at? Sure. <not-havin-it>

[pg13]

Damn it! One-up denied!

pg--It's in the can!--resignedville

[ErikNielsen]

If I do a joke once and it doesn't work, I will try it again. The audience might be idiots.
Three times not working and I have to bid it farewell, or else I am an idiot. Not every joke makes it to three, it depends on how bad it bombed and the level of my commitment.

Wasn't it Steven Wright who said that once a joke failed three times, it was out of his act, and once it worked three times, it was essentially permanently in?

Of course, most jokes are longer and less all-or-nothing than Steven Wright's. I've definitely killed jokes after one try if they sounded bad up there -- if I couldn't see a way the audience WOULD have laughed at them. If the show exposed a structural flaw in the joke, for example.

But those jokes tend to come back on occasion. Of the three "reclaimed" A-material jokes I mentioned above, the Donkey Kong bit was a bit I did once at an open mic, failed with, dumped, and didn't bring back for the better part of a year. (At which point it almost immediately became my strongest bit.)

The Wilderness Lore bit consisted of a failed bit I did once attached to a failed bit I did twice. Six months later, I lashed them together and attached an intro and a tag. Presto -- instant A material.

All I'm saying is, I wouldn't be so quick to discard jokes, even after discarding them. And that goes double for the jokes that didn't work <i>because there was something structurally wrong with them</i>. Worst-case scenario, a joke that failed overall could still be trimmed down to a one-liner, or else cannibalized for lines in future jokes.