Comedy Rules

[pg13]

IT SURE DOES!

In various discussions here in the Stage Time subforum of AST, there's talk about the "rules of comedy." These so-called rules aren't written down, they're passed down--the way that "Roots" was passed down from griots to Alex Haley (now THERE'S a reference only for me)--from the more experienced comedians to the less experienced comedians...and so on, and so on...

That way each new crop of comedians learns from the experience of those who came before them.

But comedy is a pursuit that seems to attract the very people who will shudder at the very idea of "rules." Comedy is about freedom! The freedom to say what and whatever you want...the freedom to do what and whatever you want!

And that's true.

What gets talked about as "rules" are more like guidelines. One reason these guidelines exist, however, is to allow all of the anarchistic tendencies of comedians saying and doing whatever it is that they might want to be able to co-exist with the same tendencies of other comedians to say and do what THEY want.

For example, there is a "comedy rule" that the opening acts should not be dirtier than the headliner. That rule exists because that makes for a better running show. Sometimes, a performer can go inappropriately "blue" and poison the room for the performers who have to follow them...so, comedians with experience learn that this rule exists and it informs their process.

Is this rule unbreakable? Certainly not, or some of our favorite dirty comics would never have risen through the ranks. And not every headlining comedian needs "protection" from whatever the other performers on the bill might want to do...

But, it's good to understand the reasons WHY this rule exists...and to know how to not make yourself a nuisance based on your own selfishness/arrogance...and to appreciate those who let you "break" the rules.

There are reasons things are done a certain way. Yes, wild horses will chafe at the bit. Yes, it's good to challenge assumptions. Yes, there's no reason to do something JUST because things have always been that way. But, simply ignoring all rules...that's denying the benefit of years of experience by people who were just as eager to make their mark as you...but learned through experience and from those with more experience the value of that experience.

So...maybe this thread can be used to talk about these unwritten rules--and discuss why those "rules" came to be, what's the reasoning behind them, whether or not they're valid...when (and sometimes "who") can break them and when they shouldn't be broken (and who specifically shouldn't break them.)

Could be a good discussion...

pg--Maybe?--edmonton

[James Smann]

Love this thread.

One "rule" that my partner and I run up against, whether I'm flying solo for a gig or he's with me, is "never follow a musical act." Which means we get given the "headliner" or "closing" slot all the time and it has bitten our ballsacks a few times in that we get squeezed for time due to the other comics either going long and over (boo!) or killing (yay!). And since our approach is very "theatrical" losing five or six minutes sucks ass big time.

And my question would be why is that a hard-fast rule? I would think it would actually make more sense to have an act that plays a guitar for instance open the show. As sort of a warm-up for the audience? I guess I just never understood it, why you wouldn't want to follow a musical act...Can anyone explain it to me?

[CarolineEAnd]

From Bill Hicks, via Chris Hardwick:

1. If you can be yourself on stage nobody else can be you and you have the law of supply and demand covered.
2. The act is something you fall back on if you can’t think of anything else to say.
3. Only do what you think is funny, never just what you think they will like, even though it’s not that funny to you.
4. Never ask them is this funny – you tell them this is funny.
5. You are not married to any of this shit – if something happens, taking you off on a tangent, NEVER go back and finish a bit, just move on.
6. NEVER ask the audience “How You Doing?” People who do that can’t think of an opening line. They came to see you to tell them how they’re doing, asking that stupid question up front just digs a hole. This is The Most Common Mistake made by performers. I want to leave as soon as they say that.
7. Write what entertains you. If you can’t be funny be interesting. You haven’t lost the crowd. Have something to say and then do it in a funny way.
8. I close my eyes and walk out there and that’s where I start, Honest.
9. Listen to what you are saying, ask yourself, “Why am I saying it and is it Necessary?” (This will filter all your material and cut the unnecessary words, economy of words)
10. Play to the top of the intelligence of the room. There aren’t any bad crowds, just wrong choices.
11. Remember this is the hardest thing there is to do. If you can do this you can do anything.
12. I love my cracker roots. Get to know your family, be friends with them.

I'd say about 10 of those I follow closely whenever I go on stage. I've never asked "How you folks doin?" and I'm glad I don't because it works so much better for me to just do it.

Also, number 9. I'm not going to say "I was at the mall the other day and I saw the craziest thing. It's a blah blah blah" I'll say "At the mall there is a thing that's blah blah blah" The room stays entertained more, and it gives me more room to be creative and funny.

[ASR]

I wholeheartedly approve of this thread, PG13. And thanks for that list, Caroline, it's a good one.

I have nothing else to say right now but I can assure you I will later.

[pg13]

"never follow a musical act."

why is that a hard-fast rule? I would think it would actually make more sense to have an act that plays a guitar for instance open the show. As sort of a warm-up for the audience? I guess I just never understood it, why you wouldn't want to follow a musical act...Can anyone explain it to me?

I'll give it a shot, but certainly others can chime in with their ideas.

"Never work with dogs or children, you'll always get upstaged."--actor's rule.

Same idea applies here.

When a song ends...people applaud.

It is hard-wired into our DNA...even if a song (comedic or not) is terrible, people will generally clap. (Sometimes, maybe, because it is over.)

In a comedy show, this creates "fabricated energy" (not my term, but it is the perfect description.) Fabricated energy--positive audience reactions that aren't necessarily based on the validity and efforts of the performer...and some non-music based comics can feel that it puts more pressure on them to try to goose their act to match that energy level, and that can seem unfair.

It can make a comic armed with nothing more than his words, ideas and his methods of getting those ideas across seem, due to nothing in particular that comic did to deserve such a fate, "less" than the performer who played guitar and sang parody songs in front of him.

The same can be true for comedians who marry their comedy efforts to other skills--comedy magicians, comedy jugglers, comedy impressionists, etc.

(Similar "rules" apply to things like "don't follow high energy performers" and "if you're an ethnic performer, don't follow someone of your own ethnicity" and "if you're a woman don't follow another woman" etc. etc.)

That's why I think that "rule" is mentioned.

That said, I, personally, don't buy into that rule. I've followed plenty of music-comedy acts. I've booked music-comedy acts in shows and put people after them. I've seen music-comedy acts work as MCs just fine.

We all make adjustments. We all HAVE to make adjustments--it's never going to be "just so" for you. Music-comedy is common enough so you should know how to follow someone who sings funny songs they wrote, or parodies of popular songs, or just strums away while they tell some one-liners.

And, actually, I think more than a "rule"--this is an example of comedy purist prejudice. In some comedians' minds, comedy should ONLY be words, ideas and conveying those ideas with those words...that music cheapens it somewhat (as would impressions, juggling, magic, etc.)

Some performers "would rather" not follow certain acts. And some performers earn themselves enough clout to get what they want... (Others just whine and bitch about it until they get their way...or until they don't and then they suck it up.)

pg--But I could be wrong about that...--edmonton

[James Smann]

That totally makes sense about the "fabricated energy." And it's nice to see that you, as someone who books talent, will put us musical comedians anywhere in a set you damn well please!

[pg13]

From Bill Hicks, via Chris Hardwick:
2. The act is something you fall back on if you can’t think of anything else to say.

I'm glad you've posted Bill's list. I've always liked it.

I wanted to talk about Bill's #2. (Sounds like a shitty subject...heyooooooooooo.)

I know a lot of rather green comedians who read that and thought that was license to both go up on-stage and ramble incoherently...AND to shit on comics who actually had jokes.

It's not. At least, in my interpretation, it's not.

Bill Hicks had an act. He lived and died by the same "comedy rules" as we all did...he spent years developing bits, molding them into what he did, night after night...

Bill Hicks was not "anti-joke" nor "anti-act."

What I think he was trying to say--at least, what I got out of that--was, don't be so married to your act that you stop being the naturally funny and quick-witted person you are...who can speak, with comedic purpose, to a group of people. You're not a monorail tied to the track of your planned set. You're not a horse under a yoke, forced to simply put your head down and pull yourself forward without regard to what's happening in your head.

If, while you are performing, you have a funny idea: express it...and when you reach the end of your ability to speak, comedically, about that idea...then you continue with your act.

The way it is written, without any context or knowledge of Bill's comedic journey, it sounds rather perjorative. As if it says "If a comedian is doing their act, it's because they have nothing to say." I don't think that's the intention AT ALL.

Some of the best shows you'll ever do are the shows where you never get around to doing half the material you thought you were going to do when you planned your set before hitting the stage... Some of those shows will have seen you totally in your moment, totally expressing yourself naturally and going with the flow of what was truly happening in your mind...

THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT'S THE PLAN--that's to point out that when you have a solid act to fall back on, and have intimate knowledge of jokecraft so you can organize your thoughts with some comedic structure, and you've performed often enough so you can feel when you need to tighten up with the audience or give them slack...you can find youself in situations that become MORE than what you could have imagined.

Your act is what you fall back on when you can't think of anything else to say...so, you'd better have a good act or lots of things to say (and be effective at saying it.)

pg--But, again, I could be wrong about that.--edmonton

[CarolineEAnd]

It would be ridiculous to "quote" your post, but regarding what you said:

Exactly. Once I tried to "pull a Kindler" and go on stage with rough ideas, and although I had some laughs I didn't have a good time and neither did the audience. I like the jokes I tell to be totally ingrained in my brain, and make me laugh for days after I first come up with it. I take that joke and turn it into a complete thought with funny phrases/words/delivery/whatever. But I like to make sure that my "act" is solid so that even if my cute little nuancey things aren't well received, the premise will still get a laugh.

[kellydavis]

bill's #2: shout out to ross noble, who is kinda sorta very god-like in that respect.

never had any probs with following "music comics" but i have a rule for myself that's in a cousin genre - never ever try following a band that makes the audience shake their booty. nobody wants to laugh after they've been grinding up against a pretty stranger. if i was reggie watts, maybe i could pull it off though...but i'm tone-deaf.

[ErikNielsen]

Oh, wait -- I thought you were saying that you, as a musical act, didn't like to follow another musical act. Which made sense to me, but this new thing you're talking about doesn't sound familiar. (Then again, never having been a musical act, I've never been the target of any prejudices about it.)

But I will say this, now that I'm thinking of it -- "never put two comics with similar styles next to each other" is generally a good rule.

Though maybe that's more "Booker Rules" -- I mean, if you're scheduled to follow someone with a similar style, what are you going to do? You're stuck with it. But speaking as a comic who tends to shout, I feel like I get a boost from the contrast with the act before me. But if the act before me was also shouting... eh. I mean, I can get through, but why? And I know the same's true of deadpan comics.

(But glancing at PG's comment... "woman" is not a style, of course.)

[JoshRencher]

Totally agree with you, Erik. Generally speaking, I don't think much regard is
given to the order of acts in most live shows that I attend or perform in. I've
always felt that the cadence of styles/energies in a lineup can make or break
the individual performances and, by extension, the whole show.

Personally, I never complain about where I'm placed in the lineup, because
even when it's wrong, I'll see it as an opportunity to differentiate myself.
Though I'll probably wonder why the booker thought it was a good idea.

[KevinLee]

Don't make fun of retards.

[Vercetti]

Like what PG said, the RULES are more like GUIDELINES. There's certain rules I've imposed on myself early on, but those rules have always ended up being broken (especially the "lay off the swearing" rule. Was I fucking insane?). So ultimately for me there's no real RULES, even though, in terms of what *I* do, I have a good idea of what works and doesn't work, having done this for a few years.

As for watching other acts I don't really care what I'm laughing at just as long as I'm laughing.

[soce]

I feel a lot of prejudice within the comedy community because I am a musical act, and that's why I mostly just do regular non-music stand-up these days, so that I can blend in and be "one of the gang." A lot of people complain about not wanting to follow me when I do music, but the talented comedians are able to do just fine.

I personally believe that a good musical set creates a positive energy that makes the audience happier and makes them more receptive to listening to jokes, and they won't have any expectations that the next act is going to do anything other than be funny.

"I just saw this one guy sing a song over a guitar.. I bet the next guy is going to do gymnastics!!!" That doesn't make sense.

[pg13]

Don't make fun of retards.

Good advice.

pg--Doesn't seem to stop anyone though, does it?--edmonton

[Vercetti]

I personally believe that a good musical set creates a positive energy that makes the audience happier and makes them more receptive to listening to jokes, and they won't have any expectations that the next act is going to do anything other than be funny.

I think music and comedy can work together to an extent but it depends on how you structure it. Like if you put the band last it can work okay. I did a show a couple years ago where I had to follow a band that went for 2 1/2 hours and then the leader of the band, apparently not having done enough stage time, did a mellow acoustic set. I think the last song he played was 'She Talks to Angels' by the Black Crowes. Then *I* had to get up and tell jokes after that. And NO ONE was in the mood to laugh at that point. I got stares. "Why isn't this guy doing blues songs like the last guy?"

I've had offers like "Hey, you wanna get up and tell jokes between bands next week?" That's the kind of thing that doesn't work. That's like asking "Hey, you wanna get up and feel like a total asshole between bands next week?"

Generally, I don't think the relationship between comedy and music is as strong as people say. Like, no one goes to a comedy show to rock out. But it can work sometimes, depending on the acts and where, in the show, you place them. It's just a delicate mix. I actually got my start doing music too, before getting into stand up full-time, so I dig where you're coming from.

[pg13]

A lot of entertainment bookers don't understand the vital difference between music and comedy, they see it as interchangeable entertainment...but a comedian needs less gear.

With music, you can enjoy the experience passively... There can be music while other things are going on--you could be listening to music while eating, drinking, talking to friends, checking out things on your phone, hitting on attractive people...etc.

Comedy doesn't work that way. With comedy, you have to be paying attention...it can't be enjoyed passively. To some extent, you can eat and drink...but if you talk with friends, check out htings on your phone or hit on people, not only is the comedy performance wasted on you...but by doing those things you make it harder for other people to pay attention and enjoy the comedy.

When you mix the two up, music and comedy, it isn't always that these are two great tastes that taste great together. People who are talking with their friends or hitting on people don't want to have to stop doing that to pay attention to someone telling jokes. (And people who get bleary-eyed drunk for a band can't be expected to sober up instantly and behave for some guy telling unicorn jokes.)

Music-based comedy, of course, is different...there's some expectation that the audience will continue paying attention...but, at some molecular level, it can trigger the types of behaviors that might not damage the music-based comedy performer...but might cause problems for non-music-based comedy acts to follow.

I suppose to some degree, it all comes down to how comedy-based is the music-based comedy performer?

pg--I've got my peanut butter in my chocolate...always sounded dirty to me.--edmonton

[Cameron]

(especially the "lay off the swearing" rule. Was I fucking insane?).

Not insane at all. That's actually a really good rule, especially if you want real work. I'm starting to learn that the hard way (I don't swear too much, but I'm pretty dirty).

[ASR]

Yeah, lately I've been forcing myself to perform completely clean. It's much more satisfying, especially since there's a good number of "comics" at some of the crappier open-mics I frequent that tend to have acts that consist almost entirely of saying "fuck" and talking about their penis. When I can get laughs without having to rely on swearing or shock value, it always feels more fulfilling.

[CarolineEAnd]

I agree with ASR as far as avoiding fuck/dick jokes.

I'd also like to add, as a woman who often has to perform with only males, please do not do material about violence towards women. I mean, I'm a super liberal lesbian and whatnot so I don't like ANY violent jokes, but if you are performing in a show with a woman no matter if she's MCing or headlining, do not do material about doing violence unto them.

I would say the same applies to racial minorities, but the comics I've performed with tend to be more ambiguous with their racial humor, whereas I've heard "Since when is it wrong to beat your wife? I mean, she's your property!" and "If you don't hit your girlfriend, how will she know what to do?"

Honestly, beyond the fact that it makes your co-workers (with vagina's) uncomfortable, it's also not really a funny joke. And for the record, I do have a sense of humor about myself. I don't mind vegetarian/Christian/lesbian jokes at all (as long as they're funny). People can say "All vegetarians should be shot and killed" and it's fine because nobody does that, but people DO commit violent acts against women and people (especially in the south where I perform) DO think it's alright.