I thought this would be a good thread for beginning comedians who have questions to ask more experienced comics-not one experienced comic in particular, but seasoned comedians in general.
For instance, why do comics often say you can't make it too early? What happens? There are some comics who seem to be making it quick? Are they doomed?
Also, when in your development should you audition for Live At Gotham? Three years in? Six years?
"You're a ghost!"- Tom Scharpling
I've often heard one should have a "point of view". I've never been clear exactly what POV means in a comedy context.
Could someone offer a concise definition?
I think this thread should be retitled "Comedy Questions That Experienced Comics Think Beginners SHOULD Be Asking".
Watching conversations like the "Successful" thread, I think the wrong kinds of questions get asked too often. It seems to boil down to "how do I become awesome immediately?". Or "am I ready for ___" questions that nobody can answer but the comic himself.
I think it would be much more valuable if the questions put forth in this thread come from the veterans. What should the young'uns be asking themselves in order to move forward?
I've got one. I'm very new and I'm struggling with good setlist layout. Most of my jokes are pretty clean, but I've got just a couple that are fairly dirty, one of them being my consistent closer. I worry that starting very clean and then bringing this stuff out of nowhere will make the audience uncomfortable, but I also fear that opening with a dirty joke will kind of betray my voice. I'm not exactly a cringe humor guy, I just have a dirty punchline that works better in the premise than anything else I've tried.
Is this over-analyzing? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
PS sharilyn I love your idea too.
This isn't over analyzing, I think it's a valid question.Originally Posted by forgetiheardthat
If you don't want to be perceived as a dirty comedian I would recommend opening with your cleaner material. Your first joke sets the stage for your entire set. In my experience it is much easier to move from clean to dirty material than vice versa.
And MO!, sharilyn hit the nail on the head. Don't waste your energy worrying about "making it." In my opinion you can't make it too early and you can't make it too late. There is no grand comedic timeline that every comedian must follow, everyone is different.
As for Point of View, POV and the term "voice" are often used interchangeably. Different comedians will have different definitions for the terms. How those terms inspire new comedians is what is truly important. Be original. Find out what audiences find funny about YOU, and work hard at developing that. Spend a lot of time writing jokes and perform as much as possible. That's the simplest and best advice I can give.
Best of luck
Some people complain that my posts are too long. I'll try to keep these answers short...and always remember that your mileage (or opinions or experiences) may vary.
Mo Question #1: Why is it bad for comics to make it too soon?
pg answer: There are just some things that you learn only by doing it a lot...techniques to handle a variety of circumstances, including but not limited to: You've had some success, how do you handle topping your best efforts? ...and... What do I do when people stop thinking of me as the hot new thing?
Mo Question #2: What happens to those who seem to be making it quick?
pg answer: They make some money, they get on tv, they make other comics who haven't achieved the same level of success frustrated. Beyond that, sometimes nothing bad happens...but other times a career flames out, a comedian's development can be stunted by too much success too soon.
I think the bigger point is: don't be so worked up about the opportunities that others get, and don't be too obsessed about where you are at this moment. Keep doing what you do and if what you do is good...chances are, someone will notice. Beyond that, it's out of your control and it's never going to be "fair."
Mo question #3: When should you audition for Live at Gotham? 3 years? 6 years?
pg answer: Considering the Gotham tv show began only 2+ years ago and there are some rumors I'm hearing about whether or not it'll continue in the future, I'm not sure there's an answer here.
I also hate to say this but, there's a certain amount of truth to the "if you wonder if you should audition, you're probably not ready" approach.
---
Dorset question #1: What is a concise definition of comedic point of view?
pg answer: Concise? What do I know about concise?
Point of view is self-explanatory--it is the definable and unique perspective by which the world is seen..."this is how I see it, from who I am and where I am". Think of the film technique with the same name: a POV angle is that would be seen by the character's eyes.
A comedic point of view describes the ability to demonstrate that unique and definable perspective through one's material and performance. (I've also heard of this described as a comedian's "throughline".)
Think of the classic contrasting definition between "jokes" (which anyone can tell) and "material" (which can only truly be told by the person whose persona matches the comedic point of view imbued into those thoughts and that performance.)
---
forgetiheardthat question #1: Any help with set list construction, especially when it comes to a couple of blue jokes in a mostly clean set?
pg answer: The classic advice of "end on a dick joke" has a certain amount of merit. So does "Start with your best joke, end on your second best joke."
A set opener has a specific job to do--it has to uncross the arms of an audience that needs proof that they should feel confident that you can make them laugh...while AT THE SAME TIME setting them up with enough information to get a sense of who you are and where you're coming from.
If your first joke is dirty, they'll probably expect you to be dirty throughout your set.
A set closer has a specific job to do--it has to allow you to leave the stage with a big enough laugh to make it clear that the time that audience just spent with you was clearly worth it...while leaving a lingering impression that should, hopefully, make people want to tell their friends about how funny you were and look forward to seeing you again.
If your last joke is dirty, they're more likely to remember you being dirty.
The 2007 Seattle International Comedy Competition had a competitor whose act was that of a likable, comfortable, African-American suburban dad...very Reginald VelJohnson-ish. He never got huge laughs in his set, but crowds generally liked him...until he'd do a closing bit that was almost always REALLY dirty. It wasn't the same closing bit--seemed he had a bag full of sloppy pussy-eating jokes. It just didn't work. His comedic point of view was clearly inconsistent--so, people didn't accept him...and he failed to get out of the preliminary round.
That said...there's certainly a way to make a comedic subversion of what you've created throughout your set in the last joke of that set--because the tension of having just basically "Punk'd" the audience is strong. It may, however, be a gag you can only do with an audience that has never seen you before and won't see you again. Something to weigh out.
Setlist construction is an imperfect art. One joke that works well might depend on empathy you've created when certain jokes precede it...and won't work at all if moved. Some performers don't like being tied to a setlist at all, feeling that they can surf the fickle waves of an audience better in the moment than any predetermined list. It can certainly save you needless obsession-based worry if you can break-away from depending on a rigid setlist early in your comedic pursuits.
(This said from someone who still slavishly writes out a setlist to this day...I know why I do it, but I definitely understand the opinions of those who suggest that I stop.)
pg--Answers? Maybe. Maybe not. Better said by Manic Street Preachers, "This is my truth, tell me yours."--seattle
Last edited by pg13; April 15, 2009 at 12:08 AM. Reason: Cleaned up a couple of grammatical errors.
Thanks a lot!
"You're a ghost!"- Tom Scharpling
When do I get my sitcom on Fox?
Doesn't it seem like Comics say things on stage that would get your azz kicked on a school yard? Comics are always telling the audience to Shut the F**k up and making fun of the way people in the audience look. How do I know where to draw the line? I still have to leave by way of the front enterance and walk to my car at the end of the night. I'm asking this here because I really don't want to learn this nugget the hard way.
I know, I know .... I should just get my stage time and learn from it instead of asking so many questions - fuck you!
If you are worried about this: don't do it. Why alienate yourself from an audience by openly berating them?
John, I get the impression that you feel like there are things that you have to do because, as you said, comics are always doing them. Just do what you want to do, man. That's the beauty of live comedy - you always get a response, good or bad, and it's immediate and very fucking real. If what you're doing is good, do it some more. If it's bad, either make it good or stop doing it. Otherwise what's the point?
John,
I think you may be misunderstanding what is frustrating some people about your questions. It isn't that you are asking questions that have already been answered, it's that you're asking questions that don't have answers at all.
When people say, 'You have to go up and find out for yourself.', they don't mean 'I know, but I'm not going to tell you'. They literally mean what they say. And besides, wouldn't it be disappointing if every other comic in the world figured it out for themselves, but you got every answer you ever needed from some message board?
To put it another way, it's like going to the top of the mountain and continually asking the zen master, "I know what you told me before, but what does one hand clapping REALLY sound like?".
Hey, check me out. I'm a ghost.
That's the truth. A lot of parallels between Zen and stand-up. I do feel that mindfulness has helped me in so far as I've benefited by actually paying attention to what I am saying/thinking onstage as opposed to mindlessly droning on, reciting my material.
It sounds like the question you are asking John can best be answered by listening to the audience. Are you nervously insulting them as a nervous verbal tic (this crowd sucks, etc) or are you actually making a specific, interesting (and of course humorous) observations about the people in the front row?
These aren't "answers" by the way. Just things to think about. No matter how hard you seek answers elsewhere, only you can judge what works and what doesn't. All anyone else can do is point you in the right direction.
"You're a ghost!"- Tom Scharpling
Here's the answer to every question in this thread:
Go onstage and perform. Get offstage and find the next place to perform. Perform and perform and perform and when you think you're getting good, perform and perform and perform until you get better than that.
Comedy is not a theoretical art. You're either doing it or you're not. The rest falls into place with experience.
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The hardest and most liberating thing about standup is the Outback Steakhouse* aspect (no rules, just right). I totally understand the desire to impose order on it but yeah it's the portion of the show where it's time to fly or fry little chicken* experiment and fail experiment and succeed, nobody but you gots the tools. The audiences will tell you when they grasp your outrageous humor.
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"There's only two things that happen under underpasses: blowjobs and knifings." — Eddie Pepitone"I don't mind seeing leprechauns, I don't want them to see me" - Paul F. Tompkins
Get up there and do it--IS good advice.
Try it and see--IS good advice.
But you know what we're missing when we're responding to our good friend, Mr. Santana? The value of a comedy buddy. Someone you can talk to about these things, to get a clearer perspective on what you think you're learning on stage.
It's very difficult to be a comedy buddy online...we don't know what you're really experiencing and we're not there to watch you do what you do. It would be awesome for you to find someone in the scene your in to hang out with, bounce ideas off of, to help each other guide your progress as its happening.
I know that helped me when I was starting out.
Comedy buddies don't last forever...but early on, they can be invaluable...they can help you correct early and obvious mistakes...they can help you put some focus to the flood of information you get each time you get on stage...they can make the drudgery of learning the craft a little easier.
pg--Didn't The Lemonheads do a song called "My Comedy Buddy"?--seattle
PS--To actually answer John's question: I don't think I've ever told an audience to shut the fuck up. I don't purposefully pick out someone in the audience just to make fun of them.
If this is what you're picking up from the comedy shows you're seeing and you're participating in...perhaps you're learning some bad lessons. Just because everyone else is doing something doesn't mean you have to do it...and just because one approach works in one room doesn't mean that's the way that you'll have to teach yourself to conform to...
One thing I've noticed in your questions is a lack of confidence in your own perspective and approach.
What inspires you, John? What do you WANT to do? You talk about what you should do, or what you might do to be successful--that's putting the end before the means. No one can guarantee you success--you can be brilliant, do everything right and it still might not happen for you. So, most comedians do it because they want to do what they're doing exactly the way they want to do it...they revel in that freedom, they ride the wave of inspiration as long as they can.
Certainly, there are things to learn, tools that can help you hone your craft...things that every beginning comedian learns the hard way...rules that seem to work, approaches that simply don't...and you'll learn them organically by going on stage and trying it... But what I'd love to read more about is what YOU feel like doing...and what it was like when YOU went up and did it.
Not endless variations of "it seems like everyone does this, should I do this too?"
The best reaction I've ever seen to a comic telling the audience to shut the F**k up was they did shutup and listened to him tell one joke and then didn't laugh and then talked over him. I was at an open mic last night where 3 comics did that and it didn't work, it's a waste of 20 seconds of your precious time on stage.
As far as making fun of the way people in the audience look, go ahead and try it if you think you can be good at. Many people have made careers off it. I see it all the time, as long as it's in good humor the audience will laugh and the person being made fun of may laugh too, but worry about hecklers.
Don't worry about walking to your car, I've never known anyone being attacked. Last night I saw a guy go up and do 15 minutes of racist jokes and people loved it. But his intent wasn't to be malicious and the audience knows that.
That's funny, I can remember off the top of my head about 30 different stories from various road comics about either being threatened verbally, or quite physically with violence after an abusive set.
I think Brian J's trying to get your ass kicked, John.
Hey, check me out. I'm a ghost.
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