Sporots

[bao]

By and large, I don't think Matt's argument is unreasonable, but there are a few things I would quibble with.

LeBron is currently the exact same age as Michael Jordan was when he won his first title. I'm not sure his window is closing, exactly. LeBron is the best player in the NBA since Jordan (with the possible exception of a peak Shaq), and is currently in the top 10-15 all-time. How far he climbs will depend on how many (if any) championships he wins. I think thats a totally fair statement. But we should all wait until the chips fall before drawing any huge conclusions.

That is to say, that in the grand historical scheme of things, Kobe, Shaq, and Duncan would all have to rank higher than LeBron right now, but (a) if I had to start a team with any one of them at their peak, I'd pick LBJ in a heartbeat, and (b) LeBron is 20-fucking-8. Give it time

Case in point: LeBron has had a much better career TO THIS POINT than Jordan. Remember: Jordan didn't "do anything" (ie win a championship) until he was 28. LeBron has three MVPs and made Cleveland a legitimate contender.

As for the "easy road" argument: please note that the 2009 Cavs won 66 games while starting Mo Williams, Delonte West, Big Z (who I hear was great, pre-Glastnost), and Anderson Varejao. Holy shit! No way even Jordan does that. Doug Henning couldn't pulled off that magic. So ... its awfully hard to fault LeBron for going to a bigger market to play with better players. I can't think of a single player in the history of the league that could have made better tasting chicken salad out of that steaming pile of chicken shit he was given in Cleveland.

Easy Road, pt deux: Magic Johnson and Kobe Bryant were drafted on to teams that already had two of the ten best players ever; Larry Bird started with the Celtics the same year Kevin McHale came over, and a year after Parish (two hall-of-famers); and Michael Jordan played in the third biggest market in the NBA, and landed a gem (not unlike the Celtics getting McHale) in Scottie Pippen. All of these guys are way, way better than Chris Bosh. And frankly, they're all better than Wade, except Parish. To piss on LeBron for leaving Cleveland is such high-horse bullshit.

I do agree that the way it is, LeBron has to be better than Jordan or he is considered a failure by much of the public. However, all I ask is that if he turns out to not be the greatest ever -- if he ends up the fifth, or ninth best player ever -- that we just enjoy him for being that. I mean, can you imagine spending fifteen years carping about what a pussy and a loser Jerry West or Oscar Robertson were? It just seems silly.

That said, if you want to hate LeBron, please do so. God knows I fucking hated Jordan with a deep, deep passion. I just never let that get in the way of the fact he was the greatest player ever, which I acknowledged then and acknowledge now.

[isoS]

I think it's important to note that of Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe and LeBron, only LeBron has wrestled with the question of "who is the closer?" on his team. Even before he had done shit winning-wise, there was no question Jordan was always going to be the guy. And now look at Durant: even on a team with as strong a #2 as you can ask for in Westbrook (a guy who would be the franchise guy on a lot of NBA teams), there's never a question of whose team it is. So why, when LeBron is so obviously superior to every other player in the league, does this question persist? Because he lacks confidence. His talent in a vacuum is unsurpassed, but add certain circumstances and his play changes -- his ability to affect the outcome of a game changes. Don't we have enough data by now to say that there is something going on between his ears that factors into his failures?

Yes, it's stupid to have this conversation about active players -- we can't really judge LeBron until his career is over and we can look back at it in full. If he wins the next 8 championships, or even, say, four of the next eight, he will rightly be in the conversation with Jordan, Bird, Magic, Shaq, Kobe. But right at this moment, if you had to bet on whether he was going to do it, wouldn't you look at his Finals appearances and say, "Hey, that's odd. This guy is unbelievably dominant all year every year, but his numbers go down when he's playing for the trophy." Some of the failures had to do with his teammates, his coaches, and of course his opponents, but don't act like he's completely blameless. Above and beyond his talent and athleticism, Jordan was special because of his ability to find a way to win. I don't think LeBron has that. Analysts were desperate to see that trait emerging from James in the last two games of the Boston series, but come on. He should've been getting 40+ every night in that series.

I'll say this: if he finds a way to put Miami on his back and beat the Thunder, a team that has pretty convincingly proven itself to be better than the Heat, I will have to eat my words, and I think a lot of people will see LeBron in a new light. Beating the Thunder under the current circumstances (hobbled teammates, daunting opponent) would represent a significant turning point for a guy who has made a habit of not overcoming the odds in big moments. But given his history, I think you'd have to be a bit crazy to bet on him right now.

[bao]

You're not wrong -- LeBron's seeming inability to close is the one thing that separates him from the top five or so. Though his playoffs numbers have been pretty great for his career, but the pattern of dominating games for 3 and a half quarters has been pretty consistent. In other words, he's been great in the playoffs, just not down the stretch of some very important, high profile games.

Also, I think we'd be surprised to watch those other guys close out big games in the past -- Magic, most notably, had a reputation as a bad crunch time player for many years (despite his Game 6 in 1980). Or how many times the Celtics rode McHale in big games -- I distinctly remember him being the number one scoring option for the late-1980s Celtics (which suited Bird fine, as his game was more LeBronish, anyway). And I would hate to guess Kobe's shooting percentage in his non-Shaq championships, but I'll put the over-under at 25%. Jordan, of course, is immune to this criticism.

Super nitpicky: I'm not sure why LeBron should have been scoring 40+ every game against the Celtics. The Celtics are still the best defensive team in the league, and without Bosh, Garnett just roamed around on defense. I'm actually surprised the Heat averaged more than 80 points per game.

Anyway, I agree, for the most part. But I will also add that I hope he doesn't get killed in the press when they lose -- the Thunder are clearly a much better team, especially with Wade looking like George Burns (or Montgomery, for that matter).

[isoS]

I did it, I jinxed the Thunder! That one's for you scammy!

[scamboogah]

This is the only time I can remember where I like the players of a team, but hate the fans, the owners, and the city they play for. Usually it's the other way around.

Of course, in Miami's case, they're all terrible.

I guess I'm trying to say I want the Zombie Sonics to win, which should provide the ultimate jinx for them.

[Adult Ed]

I'm part of the tiny group of people who are kind of rooting for the Heat just so everyone will shut up about LeBron's psyche (even though winning just one championship will be insufficient to quell the jeering).

Then Durant can go win five, six, seven rings with his young, fun to watch team because he is awesome.

[isoS]

I like the Thunder players too (except Perk), but the bad news for OKC is they will never be able to keep this team in tact beyond next season. Harden and Ibaka will be too expensive to keep, and I could see Westbrook wanting his own team in a bigger market.

[isoS]

And I will NEVER shut up about leBron's psyche! His psyche is psucky!

[bao]

And I will NEVER shut up about leBron's psyche! His psyche is psucky!

Did you actually use a shoehorn to cram that pun into this thread?

I knew you guys were throwing dirt on the Heat a little too early. They're a weird team: they never really look like they're playing well, but they're goddam tough to actually beat. In other words, they're a lot tougher than people give them credit for (but totally not a team). And can we please acknowledge that if Bosh were healthy, the Heat was have gotten to the finals in about four less games?

Also, I missed the game live last night, but watched the replay. After the game, all the sports web sites were jammed with rabid -- RABID, I say -- OKC fans claiming "the fix is in," because of the no-call on Durant's last shot ...

To say I was underwhelmed by the "foul," would be an understatement. Not that it matters, but that, quite simply, was not a foul. That would be an acceptable level of contact in the second quarter, much less with 7 seconds left. Honestly, I don't think anybody would have ever said anything if Durant and Westbrook didn't go nuts afterwards. I think Durant was just embarrassed because he missed a relatively easy game winner (after playing a fucking unbe-fucking-lievable second half. Holy Shit is he good).

In other words, OKC fans please shut the fuck up.

[Adult Ed]

Did you actually use a shoehorn to cram that pun into this thread?

The first post in the thread is "Bread Barry" so the judges will allow it.

I knew you guys were throwing dirt on the Heat a little too early.

Predicting a 4 or 5 game final is always weird. The Thunder didn't win 80% of the games in the regular season and most of those games were against teams much worse than the Heat. Teams can get hot and sweeps happen but even when they do, the person who predicted it will get the reason wrong. These teams are pretty evenly matched.

Also, I missed the game live last night, but watched the replay. After the game, all the sports web sites were jammed with rabid -- RABID, I say -- OKC fans claiming "the fix is in," because of the no-call on Durant's last shot ... To say I was underwhelmed by the "foul," would be an understatement. Not that it matters, but that, quite simply, was not a foul.

Eh, it was a foul, but so was Durant pushing off, so good no-call. The league needs to tell the refs "more no-calls."

[bao]

The first post in the thread is "Bread Barry" so the judges will allow it.

Eh, it was a foul, but so was Durant pushing off, so good no-call. The league needs to tell the refs "more no-calls."

Accepted and a-fucking-greed.

(and I still don't even think it was a foul, really)

[kwigibo]

I'm part of the tiny group of people who are kind of rooting for the Heat just so everyone will shut up about LeBron's psyche (even though winning just one championship will be insufficient to quell the jeering).

Then Durant can go win five, six, seven rings with his young, fun to watch team because he is awesome.

I am also kind of in in this minority. I've been rooting for the thunder all the way through, but I just think I'll be able to enjoy upcoming seasons more if the Lebron championship is out of the way and discussing and watching the NBA won't have this albatross hanging on it any more.

Then again, I would like to see the thunder 4 get rings before they break up the band, so they'd have to win next year.

[isoS]

Really OKC? After everything you've accomplished this postseason, NOW you're going to turn into pumpkins? I know Miami is stepping it up, but seeing the Thunder players not wanting to shoot, missing open shots and turning it over in the last minute of a close game is baffling after what they did against the Mavs, Lakers and Spurs.

[Americas Team]

Really OKC? After everything you've accomplished this postseason, NOW you're going to turn into pumpkins? I know Miami is stepping it up, but seeing the Thunder players not wanting to shoot, missing open shots and turning it over in the last minute of a close game is baffling after what they did against the Mavs, Lakers and Spurs.

Honestly the free throws are the most alarming thing. They usually shoot 83%. They would be up 3-0 if they just shot their normal percentage. It's bonkers.

Thunder win the next game though.

[Hated Milk Machine]

terrible game. harden stinks.

[TimBuktu]

Harden has a bad case of the yips. He was wide open for about 6 seconds towards the end of that game before he finally took a shot. He also had about 4 passes into the Heat's legs in a row. I'd love to blame the refs, because I feel like they've been exceptionally shitty all series, but OKC is choking in these end of game situations and the Heat, and James in particular, are coming up big.

[bao]

terrible game. harden stinks.

I couldn't disagree more. I thought that was probably the best game of the playoffs, or at least of the finals. Super high-level basketball. People are awfully quick to talk about how bad OKC is playing without realizing how insanely good Miami's defense is playing. There are numerous websites that break down, play for play, how fast Miami (esp. LBJ) is at getting over screens, playing passing lanes, and rotating. This ain't the western conference. They've basically forced OKC into playing one-on-one basketball.

That said, OKC is pretty goddam good at one-on-one basketball. Jesus Christ, Durant and Westbrook are so fucking good. And Harden basically won the San Antonio series for them, but he just can't get loose against Miami. Bad matchup for him. I think he's used to being stronger than the guys who guard him. And yes, at this point he is in his own head. His psyche psucks.

Anyway, I thought that was a great, great game, between two really good teams. I hope OKC wins game 5 to take this to 6 or 7.

And for what its worth, Miami is clearly the tougher team in this series. Absolutely dominating OKC down the stretch.

[Hated Milk Machine]

I couldn't disagree more. I thought that was probably the best game of the playoffs, or at least of the finals. Super high-level basketball. People are awfully quick to talk about how bad OKC is playing without realizing how insanely good Miami's defense is playing. There are numerous websites that break down, play for play, how fast Miami (esp. LBJ) is at getting over screens, playing passing lanes, and rotating. This ain't the western conference. They've basically forced OKC into playing one-on-one basketball.

That said, OKC is pretty goddam good at one-on-one basketball. Jesus Christ, Durant and Westbrook are so fucking good. And Harden basically won the San Antonio series for them, but he just can't get loose against Miami. Bad matchup for him. I think he's used to being stronger than the guys who guard him. And yes, at this point he is in his own head. His psyche psucks.

Anyway, I thought that was a great, great game, between two really good teams. I hope OKC wins game 5 to take this to 6 or 7.

And for what its worth, Miami is clearly the tougher team in this series. Absolutely dominating OKC down the stretch.

hey i started watching basketball about 3 weeks ago so i defer to you on this one

[isoS]

Well, I got the 5 part right at least.

[Couldn'tThinkOfaName]