Mad Men

[scamboogah]

Now, let's get back to telling me how I would have ruined the civil rights movement. Just to put in perspective how ridiculous the historical accusation is, we're all the kind of people who would have let 6 million jews die in the holocaust. We're letting thousands of children starve as you read this post, how would that have been different? Feel bad about yourself yet? Good, you should.

(Now I'm imagining overwrought HITLER 1942 social media)

Dude, I was just trying to talk you out of fucking a big sweaty guy. At the end of the day, it's your decision. If it's what you want, go nuts (literally).

[Kon Darp]

Dude, I was just trying to talk you out of fucking a big sweaty guy. At the end of the day, it's your decision. If it's what you want, go nuts (literally).

I was just commenting on the silliness of historical presumption like that. Your weirdly-out-of-character empathic perspective for Joan in this situation is valuable and interesting, and I wasn't trying to be combative or shut you down. You can even say you "won" the argument if you want!

And yes, it should be less difficult to convince a heterosexual male not to fuck a fat sweaty guy for money.

[Umlaut]

I don't think Peggy Olson is off the show. Peggy leaving is not Sal leaving, or even Kinsey being left behind after the formation of SCDP. From the very first episode her fate has been 100% tied to Don Draper's, and they can't just have her walk out of the office without following up. I'm sure we'll see substantially less of her from now on, but I'm hoping it will be like Betty from Seasons 1-3 to 4-5. Still an integral part of the show, just not so much in the "inner circle" of every episode. We've seen into the Chaogh (I'll never spell that right) offices once or twice before (Smitty works there, remember?) -- I'm hoping her departure from SCDP will be universe expansion for the show and we'll continue to track Peggy's path as a character. And I'm going to keep (deluding myself into?) believing this until Matthew Weiner explicitly says otherwise.

(Peggy has always been my favorite character, I may be in denial)

[Bucky_Sinister]

Let's all not worry about Peggy. There's only two more episodes this season. I'm sure they have something awesome in mind for her next season. They have a lot to wrap up with Betty and also all those death/suicide foreshadowings.

[smartbunny]

I think you're looking at this from a modern perspective, where that kind of behavior would be unusual. Back then, it wasn't.

It has to start somewhere. Someone has to stand up and say I will not do this, it is reducing women to tits and snatches, and why would anyone take a female copywriter seriously when women are just holes to be fucked? Peggy left at the perfect time.

[SeanX3]

Of course, but those were the times. It was like that everywhere, in all companies. Joan isn't the unusual one, Peggy is.

Every time they chat in that quiet little middle room, it's worlds-colliding awesome.

[davidd]

It has to start somewhere. Someone has to stand up and say I will not do this, it is reducing women to tits and snatches, and why would anyone take a female copywriter seriously when women are just holes to be fucked? Peggy left at the perfect time.

But I mean, this is a story, not a parable which is supposed to show the correct way to act. The theme of the episode was that Joan was given a really shitty sophie's choice that only a woman of her generation or before would have been given. Either she demoralize and debase herself or she risk not having enough money for her son and helping to ruin the company when she could have helped. Whether or not she is actually set for life is irrelevant, because she thought she would be. And we shouldn't forget that, due to Pete, she thought many of her trusted friends, as well as her employers (including an ex-lover and a guy who has feelings for her) were pushing for her to do it as well. So I think it's more than ok to empathize with her choice.

Peggy, on the other hand, was able to see that her own self-respect as a woman should be worth more to her than security or pleasing the men in her life. Note that when Peggy quits, she says to Don "There is no number," meaning, she can't be owned- She's not a Jaguar. Joan, in turn, allowed herself to become an object.

That's really why I have loved this show and this season specifically: because everyone's story-lines are so tightly held together by theme that its like only one great narrative. Hard to do with a television show.

[Mindyjoy]

Of course, but those were the times. It was like that everywhere, in all companies. Joan isn't the unusual one, Peggy is.

Correction: It *is* like that everywhere. This kind of stuff still happens, all the time.

[isoS]

I actually find Lane the most contemptible of all of the partners in this episode. Pete and Roger played to type: Pete is amoral and Roger has never truly respected Joan. Pete asking Joan to take one for the team is exactly what we'd expect of him. He's cheated on his wife repeatedly and his basic opinion of women is that they use sex as a commodity anyway, so how different is this ("Cleopatra was a queen"; his bitching to Harry about the Gilmore Girl). Roger thinks he loves Joan but he only loves Joan as the Other Woman. He didn't go to her after he left Mona; he abandoned them both at the same time. He used Joan for one final fuck after the mugging the same way he took one last poke at his wife in the new apartment. He needed Jaguar and didn't really care what it took beyond a token faux-distancing of himself. Burt Cooper is checked out. Don Draper said no. But Lane? Lane not only encouraged her to do it (while pretending to dissuade her) but he asked her to give up a huge cash payment to take a piece of a company that was in worse shape than anyone knew, and which would be worth nothing if Jaguar went with another agency despite Joan's efforts. Utterly disgraceful.

Maybe I misread it, but I thought Lane was genuinely trying to discourage Joan from doing "it," simply for the selfish reason that if she had to be paid then his embezzlement would be uncovered. He grasped at the 5% thing only because he feared he couldn't talk her out of it and wanted to make sure they wouldn't have to pay her cash. The scene, as I saw it, hinged on dramatic irony: Joan wasn't going to sleep with the guy until Lane went in to talk her out of it (not for her sake, but to save himself) and inadvertently talked her into it by dangling a much bigger prize.

The mechanics of the whole arrangement were pretty contrived, which is unusual for Mad Men. But it was so fucking compelling and emotionally charged that I didn't bog down in the fact that the whole thing felt unrealistic, even for 1966. (The unrealistic elements being: the car guy having the balls to ask, point blank; Pete having the nerve to approach Joan about it; the partners seriously discussing it even for a second, never mind tacitly approving it; Joan deciding she'd do it. This isn't to say something like this never happened, it's just to say that putting it on screen highlights how unbelievable a situation it would be if it did happen in real life.)

[Adult Ed]

Maybe I misread it, but I thought Lane was genuinely trying to discourage Joan from doing "it," simply for the selfish reason that if she had to be paid then his embezzlement would be uncovered. He grasped at the 5% thing only because he feared he couldn't talk her out of it and wanted to make sure they wouldn't have to pay her cash. The scene, as I saw it, hinged on dramatic irony: Joan wasn't going to sleep with the guy until Lane went in to talk her out of it (not for her sake, but to save himself) and inadvertently talked her into it by dangling a much bigger prize.

That's an interesting take but I think Lane knew as well as everyone else that the health of the firm depended on landing Jaguar. He was acting magnanimous and sympathetic but - and this is where the dramatic tension is for me - he was basically Pete but, where Pete was only superficially pretending to care about Joan (and Joan saw through it, as he knew she would), Lane was genuinely trying to convince Joan that he was acting for her benefit (which she thought). This makes Lane much worse to me.

Lane's character is an interesting one because, unlike most of the firm - who lack sufficient standards to fail at living up to them - Lane actually HAS standards, knows what is right and fails again and again. He is still a monster for his willingness to sacrifice Joan to cover up his crime. And Joan is going to be the one who catches him, too. If she doesn't ask Don what the check to Lane for $8,000 was in the next episode, I'll eat my hat.*

* I don't wear a hat.

[smartbunny]

But I mean, this is a story, not a parable which is supposed to show the correct way to act.

I completely agree.

[SeanX3]

Correction: It *is* like that everywhere. This kind of stuff still happens, all the time.

Fair enough, I guess. The difference is that now it's more likely to be a matter of choice than necessity. There are plenty of routes for an educated modern Western woman to become financially secure. Back then, not so much, the odds being stacked against a woman more or less completely.

I'm not trying to say everything's peachy keen for women (or minorities) these days. Like davidd says, Smartbunny seems to think Mad Men should be a parable that conforms to our "progressive" views, but it's a drama about what things were actually like. (That's what I was trying to say.)

[smartbunny]

No, I don't think that about the show.

[SeanX3]

Okay, then I guess I don't understand something about your point about people acting immorally bringing down companies. (That's not sarcasm. Genuinely asking.)

[davidd]

I'm sorry, Smartbunny I wasn't trying to be a dick- I guess I just wasn't sure what point you were making. Like I wasn't sure whether you were saying that it shouldn't have been written that way because it was sexist, or just that the way Joan as a person acted was anti-woman.

[Adult Ed]

Interesting perspective on Joan's decision: http://www.vulture.com/2012/05/that.html

[StrangeLight]

It's people like you who would've prevented the feminist movement from ever happening. If you were black, you'd be livin' in the house, doin' whatever the master tells you, because it's not like slavery's going to end anytime soon, and you might as well be comfortable instead of have any pride or self-worth.

People who would do what Joan did are either, a) Young and stupid, or b) Sad and pathetic, with no moral compass and even less dignity. I pray for most of you that it's 'a', because if it's 'b', you've already lost at life, and the future doesn't look very bright for you.

wow. you mad. for what it's worth, joan did not do whatever her master told her. she could have said no. she also set her price. see, once the women's lib movement gets into the early 1990s, it's not really about the 1970s bra-burning emancipatory movement anymore. instead, it's really about allowing people to be in control of their bodies, to own their sexuality, and to make empowered choices. so, for me, how horrible joan's actions were depend heavily on how she feels about them, and the beauty of mad men is, we only ever get fleeting glances at how these characters feel about anything they've done. which is also why i feel secure in saying that, for myself, in the 21st century, i would be comfortable using my body in an economic transaction if i set the terms and boundaries.

i can also see, in 1966 in joan's world, why she'd consider it and why she'd do it. she will have infinitely more independence from this move than 1) staying married to a rapist, or 2) taking money from her baby's father. i actually believe that that is an empowered decision to make, but then i believe that vaginas are delicate flowers that need to be protected. on a person's own terms, they can do what they want with their body. the grey area in joan's case, for me, is the degree to which any of that was consensual on her part. and, again for me, her decision to stay with greg after he raped her is 10 billion times worse than her decision to sleep with the jaguar guy for a partnership in a firm.

but go ahead and question my moral compass in an unnecessary and completely uninformed personal attack. that's what we do here, right? i'm so eager to hear a man tell me i'm a terrible person for not using my body the way he expects me to. do go on.

[scamboogah]

Lane commits suicide by the end of the season.

(Kriswell predicts)

[Darryl]

Joan's Epic Moral Moment, GQ interview with Christina Hendricks.

I bet some asshole will come along and link to the same article, but I linked it first.

[Umlaut]

GQ Interview with Christina Hendricks about the episode.

edit: damn you, Darryl.