Mad Men

[Kon Darp]

Megan acted like Don should have just known that rehearsals are in Boston for 8 weeks. How could he know that?? Jesus, girl.

I love how they play with their relationship dynamics. Last episode, she threw a bowl against the wall because Don wouldn't call her to say he'd be late for work. Now she's doing the same thing to him being out on auditions, and he's supposed to just deal with it.

I would be very surprised if they abandoned Peggy entirely, but her growth this season was sort of limited. As usual on this show, it's the most natural path for her character to take. I'd love to see her compete with someone at SCDP later in the show.

It's also interesting to note that Joan ONLY hugged Lane once they got Jaguar. I don't think they're setting Don and Joan up for the long game. Just because they're both the epitome of sexiness in their respective genders doesn't mean they'd make a good pair. Her chemistry with Roger is a lot more palpable.

[Trikywu]

Don was right. Joan selling her body for a partnership and the Jaguar account was not worth it. Not just because it debased her and it's just a dumb car company, but because even though she holds a partnership (whatever that will mean for her in rank), SCDP is not guaranteed to even make it. Nor is Jaguar even guaranteed to stay. Pryce has embezzled money and over extended the agency's credit by $50,000. Also, just the fact they had Joan do the dirty deed shows they (Pete, Bert, Roger) will take unethical measures to get things done. Pryce even said the Jaguar account would strain the company's finances and over extend their resources. (I know, he was saying this to hide what he'd done, but there could be something to this.) The NYTimes article from a few weeks ago even ignored SCDP, focusing on a younger, hotter agency.

Also, one of the most underrated, young creative brains just left to work with a competitor.

With the 70's coming, women's lib, and labor laws changing, SCDP practicing prostitution to nab accounts that hinge on the vote of a horny old sleaze bag could get around the industry and crush them. Plenty of agencies have bit the dust or folded into one another in the span of 45 years for less egregious behavior. Who will bail SCDP out? McCann Erickson? BBDO? Doubt it. Sadly, the 5% stake that Joan holds will mean nothing if Pete Campbell and his bumbling crew continue unethical methods, get busted, and crumble. I even see Draper bailing before the shit hits the fan.

Meanwhile, Peggy can take her brilliance, and remove herself from this old school, boys club, sexist, sleazy bullshit and make it on her own integrity. Joanie can look over her shoulder and watch Peggy head for the door thinking she's the victor, but the real future of advertising just took the elevator out of there.

Having said that- I do feel bad for Joanie. That was heartbreaking. What happens if the world does cave in and there is no money to keep her secure for life? Especially after doing that.

And I've a feeling we haven't seen the last of Peggy.

Fuck. This show rocks my world.

[SeanX3]

The way all the male partners convened and moralized about how awful their indecent proposal was, but nobody actually put a stop to it. Ate their moral cake and took a bonus for it too. Classic. That kind of thing was as common as breathing and I'm sure it still is. Advertising people with morals? Please. I'm morally retarded but I left the advertising world before I even joined it.

The idea that only ethical people flourish is totally laughable.

The show has a lot to say about the rise of modern women and the complete lack of comprehension on the part of the men of the era. Peggy is just way to awesome to throw away. This has to be the beginning of a whole new arc for her. If her new boss is as smart as he seems (extra $1000? smart move) she'll do really well for herself. There's got to be some kick-ass competition between her and Don coming down the pike. Don even said the agency she's going to is "perfect". What's not to like? Her transformation from dowdy, insecure, fatty into slender, purple-wearing, copy-bomb is complete. Time for Phase II.

We all feel for Joan but think back—she's a hard-nosed bitch too.

Freddie Rumsen lights up my world.

[Trikywu]

The idea that only ethical people flourish is totally laughable.

Well, I didn't say that. Peggy is on the road to a promising career on her own merits. It's up to her to make it or fail. It's laughable to shrug off her integrity. There's nothing wrong it.

But prostitution? Will that kind of crap allow an agency to endure if it was ever revealed? Especially since labor laws and sexual harrassment issues were about to hit corporations? Hard nosed bitch or not, Joan took the risk. I just wonder if taking one for the team will actually pay off down the road for her. And even if it does. She knows what she did, no matter how high she holds her head up.

[SeanX3]

Everybody on the show is compromised, including Peggy.

And Joan has slept with skeezier dudes for a lot less than 5%.

The show is so great because the characters are so well fleshed-out.

If unethical behavior brought down businesses, we wouldn't have an economy.

[smartbunny]

There is nothing anyone can say to convince me that what Joan did was anything less than reprehensible. The minute Fat Jaguar Piece Of Shit (that poor actor, I really hate him) even SUGGESTED this they should have thrown him out. They couldn't get the account without the head of the dealerships? What, he OWNS Jaguar? Don't they go through corporate, why some car dealer sleaze? Asshole. Pig. Fucker.

[mike]

I like how Megan only knows how to cook spaghetti, without any sauce.

[Bucky_Sinister]

I loved that Peggy didn't wuss out and walked out. I know it's of the times, but her wanting $9/hour and the $9.50/hour counter was a little cute. I loved the parallels between all the characters and the firm itself making choices, sacrificing one thing for another...how there's no good choice in a lot of these situations, and you have to make one and live with it. Great drama.

[isoS]

After getting over how awful I felt for Peggy and Joan (both of whom, granted, have to take some responsibility for their situations -- and did I guess), I feel bad for Don too. Even though it wasn't his idea, he pitched the hell out of that shit, and is maybe finally returning to form, but he will never know if the pitch alone would've gotten them the account, and for a creative purist that burns.

[Kon Darp]

There is nothing anyone can say to convince me that what Joan did was anything less than reprehensible. The minute Fat Jaguar Piece Of Shit (that poor actor, I really hate him) even SUGGESTED this they should have thrown him out. They couldn't get the account without the head of the dealerships? What, he OWNS Jaguar? Don't they go through corporate, why some car dealer sleaze? Asshole. Pig. Fucker.

The head of the dealerships is the one actually selling the cars. It makes sense that his vote would be more important.

This is like trying to argue that what Walt does in Breaking Bad is reprehensible. The only thing that you can respond with is "Uh...yeah, that's the point." Turns out you can do reprehensible things for good reasons. At least from the male perspective, I would have sex with a large unattractive woman for 3 times my yearly salary. Especially if I had a child that I was raising on my own.

I like how Megan only knows how to cook spaghetti, without any sauce.

Would you like some cheese with that?

[smartbunny]

I disagree; it puts womens' rights directly into the toilet and reinforces the fact that Men Get What Men Want no matter what.

"I would have sex with a large unattractive woman for 3 times my yearly salary."

I'm sorry for you.

[Kon Darp]

I disagree; it puts womens' rights directly into the toilet and reinforces the fact that Men Get What Men Want no matter what.

Well, not, it's "Men get what men want as long as they give up 5% of their company." How does a blanket judgement that prostitution (in any form) is reprehensible help to drag womens' rights out of the toilet, again? Don't tell Joan what is morally acceptable for her to do with her body.

That discussion might be outside the scope of this thread, though >_>. Pete's obviously a piece of shit, just for reference.

I'm sorry for you.

Why? Because I'm willing to do consensual things that I don't enjoy for money? There are a ton of non-sexual jobs that would accomplish the same thing, just not as quickly.

[scamboogah]

Do you really think you're going to win an argument about feminism by saying, "As a dude, I'd fuck a lady for a promotion, so what's the diff?"

[pollymaepry]

Sex for women is very different than it is for men.

No one should have to tell you that.

[Kon Darp]

Do you really think you're going to win an argument about feminism by saying, "As a dude, I'd fuck a lady for a promotion, so what's the diff?"

Nope, that's why I said it's outside the scope of this thread. Not everything is about "winning," btw, I think we're allowed to discuss things for the sake of discussion. I'll make sure to consult with you before I enter any competitions, though.

I'm always curious how we reconcile the inherent differences between genders and the fight for equality. There are two conflicting ideas: women and men should be equal, and women are different than men. Exploring the cause and effect of those two things is important. Is female prostitution inherently reprehensible, or is it reprehensible because of the gender and sexual standards that we perpetuate? Is it a gender issue because Joan was asked to prostitute herself, or is it a gender issue that it's even a big deal to be asked?

Obviously, sex is different for men than it is for women. I don't need to be told that. I would be interested in hearing it justified from a feminist perspective, though.

How is that unlike a Mad Men character saying that Peggy can't work for a campaign just because she's a woman? Men and women are different, after all! A women can't market things to men. You shouldn't have to be told that! A woman can't have consensual, meaningless sex for personal gain without it being reprehensible, Kon Darp! You shouldn't have to be told!

[SeanX3]

The show is not about what would be best for people, or society, if only the world was enlightened and liberal. That would be a really shitty show. The show is about people in their time. I felt gutted for Peggy, hearing that Joan had been made partner—Joan has no serious skills, and isn't interested in them, whereas Peggy has made her way up, slowly, based not on her tits, but on her hard-won skills. But Joan gets 5% of everything for an evening's work. That's brutal, and Peggy's reaction to it was characteristically awesome.

[J.B.]

Joan has no serious skills, and isn't interested in them

Wha?!? She runs the whole damn office!

Remember the finale of season 3 when the boys are jumping ship and they have to call Joan because none of them have a clue how their business actually runs on a day-to-day basis?

[SeanX3]

She can find things. Amazing!

Look, obviously, running a big office like that is no joke—and maybe "serious skills" isn't the right phrase—but you can't argue with the fact that replacing a Joan would be much easier than replacing a Peggy.

Peggy-the-woman is blazing ahead by playing with the big boys in the big leagues, forging new ground for herself and for other women.

Joan-the-woman is not interested in that, she's more old-school in her skill-set: things like organizing, sexiness, knowing her place, discretion, selling her pussy for the right price.

Joan is a great character but I know who I admire more.

[ILoveMrShow]

Devil's Advocate Alert: Is it possible that Joan's decision was actually empowering from the stand point of a woman taking control of her own sexuality/sexual freedom? Albeit with tremendous pressure from jerks in power. That aside though, is there no positive spin for Joan?

[isoS]

If she manages to exert real control as a partner, then yes. It will be interesting to see if she can -- or if she even tries. One thing's for sure, most of those dudes (everyone but Don) are scared shitless of her, and now they owe her big-time (even after the 5%). So, she's got that going for her, which is nice.