identity politics and hate language

[Keith Whitener]

This is split from the Comedy and Everything Else Thread:

Just like y'all on the show can admittedly "go on and on" about the topic of parents who spank or hit their children, I could go on for pages and pages on the topic of identity politics and hate language, even as it pertains to use in humor. But that's another post for another thread for another time. In order not to derail this thread, which exists to celebrate a couple of my favorite comedians and one of my favorite podcasts, I'll just say I recognize there's a disagreement. I just didn't want that aspect of the letter to remain unacknowledged as the rest of it is being celebrated.

I encourage anyone offended by the faggot remark to download the Jimmy Carr episode of The Sound of Young America. Jimmy C. has some interesting ideas about how valuable it is to be politically correct, but that for comedy to work comedians should get a free pass. He outlines some obvious exceptions, and it's interesting to hear him talk about it as he's thought a lot about the subject and does a lot of top-notch insult humor.

As someone with a lot of gay friends and as someone who's been called a faggot more times than he can count, I get that it's a powerful word. But let's not go out of our way to be offended when a comedian says it in a goofy context.

Can I just say that I really dislike the terms "identity politics" and "hate language," because they are lame. Can you do me a favor and not use them?

No.

And I think you missed the part where I talked about not derailing the thread. (Maybe anyone still interested could discuss it HERE?)

Clearly, we've moved onto Sean Hannity.
And rectal birthing.

How is it "derailing" when its discussing something that was brought up on the show?

I was trying to make the point that telling other people what phrases they can or can't use is bullshit. And I was making a side-point that phrases like "hate language" are 100x creepier and orwellian to me than "faggot" is.

I heard God Hates Fags.

Just something I heard. Not saying he does. Or that he exists, or can actually hate anyone... just saying.

I have a hard time not veering into traffic on my bike when listening to this podcast.

(because of the laughter, duh.)

Thank you so much for making it and sharing it.

Hate language affirms stereotypes. To call something gay is to suggest that being gay is bad. Even if you don't intend to do this, it's still what happens when you use such language. It doesn't make you a bad person if you use it, but I think it perpetuates various forms of oppression.

Shut up you guy that possesses female qualities, which aren't necessarily bad, but in a particularly macho subculture could be taken to be of a lesser quality than others in your peer group.

Just doesn't have the same ring to it...

Yeah, but why do you need to say it in the first place?

I am glad you guys registered your opinion. Most likely Jimmy Dore and most other people will continue to say faggot occasionally. Choose to be offended if you want.

[suavepebble]

This thread is going to be bisexual eskimo shit

[scamboogah]

Yeah, but why do you need to say it in the first place?

So that pretty much eliminates insult comedy and roasts then, since you can't really put down anyone without likening them to a 'protected' class.

Unless of course you're anti-idiot or have a thing against jerks. Even calling someone 'intolerant' is biased against bigots.

[Keith Whitener]

There's a difference between using the word in the context of a joke and just calling someone that because you want them to know that you don't like them. Plus, if the joke is simply a pejorative, it's probably not going to be funny. Most jokes are more thought out than just calling someone a name.

I think that the issue raised here seems to be, "I don't care if the word has a hateful connotation, don't tell me what I can or cannot say." It feels like an attack to tell someone that they can't use a particular word. But I do not think it's an issue of whether you can or cannot, but rather it's about acknowledging the associations certain words have and saying, "Since this word offends many people, I will not use it."

I just choose not to use that sort of language. But, what are your thoughts on this?

[I love nny]

I think as with most things you need to look at the intent of the phrase. Now I consider myself pretty forward thinking and tolerant of people, but their are groups of friends that I will cut loose on/with.

[ericluxury]

There's a difference between using the word in the context of a joke and just calling someone that because you want them to know that you don't like them. Plus, if the joke is simply a pejorative, it's probably not going to be funny. Most jokes are more thought out than just calling someone a name.

I think that the issue raised here seems to be, "I don't care if the word has a hateful connotation, don't tell me what I can or cannot say." It feels like an attack to tell someone that they can't use a particular word. But I do not think it's an issue of whether you can or cannot, but rather it's about acknowledging the associations certain words have and saying, "Since this word offends many people, I will not use it."

Do you have any idea what's being spoken of?

[Keith Whitener]

Do you have any idea what's being spoken of?

Oh, sorry, using the word gay and faggot as pejoratives.

[scamboogah]

I don't think it's just in the context of a joke, it's context overall. If I'm talking to a friend of mine that I've known for years, and call him 'fag', the reason that it works comedically is that he is not gay, we both have known this to be true forever, and it is patently false and therefore kind of funny. I could've just as easily said 'Mexican' or 'Giraffe'. The primary point of humor being that I've called that person something they are obviously not. The idea that it would be negative if it were true doesn't even enter into the thought process.

Now if I go up to a stranger, or Elton John, and starting yelling 'Queerbait' into his face, that's a totally different situation altogether. I am clearly insinuating negativity and the person would rightfully be insulted.

For the most part I agree with what you're saying, but just want to make sure that we don't go off the deep end.

[ericluxury]

ok so you don't know that the topic is Jimmy Dore's use of the word in a personal letter to his friend that he chose to read on his podcast.

[Hated Milk Machine]

ok so you don't know that the topic is Jimmy Dore's use of the word in a personal letter to his friend that he chose to read on his podcast.

uhhh, seeing as how he copied this from that thread, i'm pretty sure he knows where it's from. are you just trying to pick a fight?

[Keith Whitener]

ok so you don't know that the topic is Jimmy Dore's use of the word in a personal letter to his friend that he chose to read on his podcast.

Oh, no, I do. Todd commented on it during the podcast too, but it wasn't really gone into depth. (I think Todd thought it was just some guy as opposed to Jimmy's friend) It was just jarring for me to hear it.

I also think this is an interesting topic to explore.

[Hated Milk Machine]

It was just jarring for me to hear it.

I'm "pro-faggot" I guess, but I found it jarring too. Here's the thing: was I actually offended by it? Were you? Or were we just made uncomfortable because you thought it might start a fight somewhere? Does ANYONE think that Jimmy meant it hatefully? Could anyone with a single working braincell think he meant it hatefully?

I'm annoyed with people getting offended on other peoples' behalf. If someone honestly felt oppressed bu it, let them come forward. Otherwise we get into a hypothetical debate of "what ifs I was gay and heard you..." or "what if my CHILD heard that word..." blah blah blah.

This is, of course, assuming no one is arguing that words can be inherently hateful. And if that's the case, ur dum.

Yelling at well-meaning people for using certain words to convey certain thoughts is how NAZISM STARTED! (not really, but we might as well bring Nazism into this debate now rather than later)

[Keith Whitener]

I'm "pro-faggot" I guess, but I found it jarring too. Here's the thing: was I actually offended by it? Were you?

Yelling at well-meaning people for using certain words to convey certain thoughts is how NAZISM STARTED! (not really, but we might as well bring Nazism into this debate now rather than later)

There's no reason to prove Godwin's law here.

I don't know if I was offended. When I hear that word, I think of hatefulness and so it puts a bit of a damper on the experience. Same with calling women bitches; like when people called Hillary Clinton a bitch.

[DonTGD]

... Plus, if the joke is simply a pejorative, it's probably not going to be funny. Most jokes are more thought out than just calling someone a name....

I dunno, I saw this Lisa Lempenelli special on TV...

[I love nny]

There's no reason to prove Godwin's law here.

I don't know if I was offended. When I hear that word, I think of hatefulness and so it puts a bit of a damper on the experience. Same with calling women bitches; like when people called Hillary Clinton a bitch.

I agree with half of that when i hear any kind of derogatory word for a homosexual individual i cringe and then I look to see if anyone is offened.
For me the word doesn't bother me im always afraid that it will bother others. that is why I cringe for other people.

[ProfessorShutYoMouth]

Queers.

[I love nny]

Queers.

Well played.

[Jenny]

Hang on, what was this letter? Was it tounge and cheek?

[Glorg]

Hang on, what was this letter? Was it tounge and cheek?

Read the first sentence of this thread.

[Jenny]

All right so I read the letter and I'd say Jimmy was using "faggot" as a general insult as opposed to a non-gay bashing manner. It's a brilliant letter though and I agree with his pro socialized medicine stance.