Hip Opinion?

[jenkirkman]

What is this website/message board? I was lead to it and I see that they put FREE ILLEGAL downloads of their favorite comedians albums!
That's great news because I know that for example, Todd Bary, PFT and me did NOT want to make any money at all on albums we made. I mean we put in all that hard work performing for free for years and working on bits so we could NOT make money on the albums!
#sarcasm
#hipsterssuck

[BFH]

Here's the two arguments:

1). Any exposure is good exposure. If folks dig whatever they can grab for free, they'll be willing to pay to see you and/or buy your CDs in the future. While there are some people who only download free stuff, there's also plenty of fans who want the real product with album art and everything in their hands.

2). Copyrighted material is copyrighted material and artists should not go uncompensated for their work. It is frustrating to have a CD currently in print and be working hard on selling copies, only to find out people are downloading the same material off a mediafire link.

I understand both sides of the argument. I am a musician with CDs, though they are out of print. I have also downloaded everything from out of print punk and hardcore records from music blogs to major label singles from Limewire, and I have bought bootlegs of live and unreleased Nirvana material.

[aenemaTron]

It's the internet.

[jenkirkman]

Sure. I see all sides. But I still tend to 75% of the time come down it. Hey download privately - share with friends but loading it on a website publicly for free seems to me to be a little more of a violation.
I feel anyone who feels ENTITLED to my shit for free - (there are exceptions...) might not be people who would pay to see me anyway.

However - I am always interested in the notion that I made up that these indie types (I am one) are always upset that what they like isn't more mainstream....if they stopped stealing it - maybe the artists could live on their art - thus the snowball gets bigger and more awesome.

Perhaps I'm wrong and I have no idea how illegal downloads have worked to my advantage. I'm not being sarcastic.

I just don't know if anytime soon I'll NOT be such a Lars about this.

It feels dirty seeing my stuff for free. It really just on a gut level - with no reason or intellect - bothers me.

I've never downloaded anything for free. If I have it was because I needed it THAT instant and it wasn't on iTunes and then as a good gesture, I pay for the thing later.

But that's because I'm perfect.

I pay for every comedy thing I listen to and donate to all podcasts or subscribe because I want what I like to be around.

[MrDys]

For an interesting side effect, check this out.

That said, people over at hipinion are assholes.

[crlygrl]

I download plenty of things (not comedy albums, though I'll listen to them on Rhapsody with the monthly subscription) and don't have a general problem with a lot of it, but when I saw those huge lists of torrents it did piss me off. Pretty blantant and pretty shitty if you're a fan of comedy and comedians in general. Meh.

[jenkirkman]

Oh! Let me say a few more things. I'm recording an album in Dec 2010 and it will be on sale in late winter of 2011. I do need that money and that's a big reason I'm recording the album. I don't want to do the road that much and so I'd like to "come to your town" via a CD. If people are stealing it and I'm running around trying to find comedy writing work - it's a bummer.

If a total stranger doesn't want to buy my shit because they don't know me...that's the least offensive.

But one time I was at Whole Foods in West Hollywood and a "fan" came running up saying how much he loved me and he wanted to know when I'd be at UCB again. He said he didn't have my album because he "didn't like to pay for comedy." I said...."Oh." He said, "But I should listen to it since I'm a fan. I know where I can download it for free."

Meanwhile he had a basket full of overpriced food.

That BLATANT disregard for blood sweat and tears of a mostly unknown comic and an indie comedy record label is really obnoxious to me and that's mostly the shit I am ranting against. I have no way of knowing who these people who steal are but that is the ONLY ONE WHO I MET in person.

Also the "it's promotion" is just something as a comic I'm sick of hearing. That's what the comedy clubs say as they make tons of money off drinks and food sold during my "promotional" sets. So that's why I take those years of doing comedy for free and make an album so I can get paid. And then I hear again "Well it's stolen but it promotes you..." Yeah but I'm not a touring comic - so then what?

I stand firm.
Lars Kirkman

[ASR]

I download a lot of stuff. I have to admit that. Some of it - I confess - has been comedy albums. When saying it out loud (or rather typing it in plain view) in direct response to somebody affected by piracy it doesn't seem right... so that in itself should be proof enough that there's something morally wrong with it.

That being said, I pay for and support everything I truly love. If I like a movie, I own it in DVD. If I like a comedian, I own their album. The thing is that sometimes there's a lapse period - I'll download a movie before I own it and if I love it, I'll wait a few months before buying it on DVD. Or I might grab a new comedy album or special off the web and wait 'till I see it in stores or finally get off my ass and order it.

Comedy-wise, every time I've seen a comedian I enjoy live, I have - without fail - bought a CD or DVD from them after the show. Once, with Doug Benson, I even did it despite already owning it because I knew that money was going directly to his wallet. Plus, he signed it and I forgot to bring the copy I already had.

Anyone who downloads stuff for free would probably feel terrible if it weren't an anonymous act. For the most part, it's untraceable - no consequences. The moral ambiguity grows until we're suddenly rooting for sites like The Pirate Bay to overcome the government when in reality, there's literally no question about how what they're doing is morally incorrect.

The whole "it's promotion" thing is kind of whack because... okay, so somebody downloads your album and enjoys it. Now they know who you are. Right, that's great, but they've already stolen your album and they aren't likely to go out and pay for it since they already have it. Then you put out another album, and since they're a fan they want it... but they're already the kind of person who downloads albums for free, so they just do it again. You're making a fan out of somebody who doesn't spend money.

Jen, you're not wrong to feel upset by this. I love your comedy and if I ever get to see you live I'm promising right now I'll buy a CD directly from you even though I already have Self Help and I'm sure I'll get your next one, too. This is shaky water and I'm sure if I were in your position I'd be pretty peeved, too.

[pixel revolt]

Sounds like you met one really stupid, unself-aware kid at a grocery store. Nothing more, nothing less. You're talented, you kick ass and you deserve to take the less reactive and more empowered stance and instead of letting people steal your shit AND ruin your day AND indirectly transfer bad vibes onto your good fans/people, cut that train of crappiness off at the source and minimize the damage to what you can't control (the internet stealing). The internet makes transferring files so easy and it also introduces your brain to millions of douchey people who'd otherwise have no factor or relation to your life/consciousness, so fuck them, forget them and don't let them affect your personal time or the time with your good fans who support you. Stoked to hear about the new record!

[suavepebble]

Jennifer, you must pretend that this doesn't bother you to uphold the image that you are not just a comedienne, but a human being that dwells within the mystical state of comedy throughout their entire life. This is the secret behind convincing the hip that they actually have to buy your stuff.


My teachings and my guidance are available for a fee.

[SeanX3]

1). Any exposure is good exposure. If folks dig whatever they can grab for free, they'll be willing to pay to see you and/or buy your CDs in the future. While there are some people who only download free stuff, there's also plenty of fans who want the real product with album art and everything in their hands.

But that's the thief's argument when, by any normal social standards, it should be the artist's prerogative to define the terms of the transaction. The artist might decide those are his or her terms, and then that's fine. But until then thieves shouldn't be so condescending. Otherwise, I can break into their homes and take all their shit until I feel like paying for some of it.

With one exception* I pay for everything I consume. I get all my music from iTunes and I've bought a bunch of comedy albums recently via Amazon. (Why does iTunes have such a lame selection?) I do this because I can and because it feels better than skulking around with a bag of bullshit arguments in my back pocket.

* The last season of Mad Men which I downloaded via Torrents every week and watched with only a sliver of guilt.

[SeanX3]

But I did like how they described Todd Barry as "soothing".

[funkyrhino]

I get all of my stuff from Amazon.com and Emusic when it comes to comedy and a lot of music.

However, there are some rare funk/disco etc tracks that I download from peoples blog and it's usually those hard to find, hard to get albums that someone wants $30 for.

So to answer the question, do I steal? Yes, but I'm also black. White people you have no excuse especially if you were raised in the suburbs.

[pissedpissedofferson]

I get most of my comedy albums from iTunes, so it's not that I haven't paid, it's just that Apple takes about 18 months to pay you.

[James Smann]

I will never buy pirated movies. I have friends "in the industry" and I know how hard they work for their craft. And I also know not everyone is Tom Cruise or Angelina Jolie so there are some people who actually NEED their paychecks to eat and live.

When it comes to music and comedy albums I will admit that I have downloaded illegaly before. And I also admit that it's a stupid double-standard I have for myself...However by and large I pay for it. I'd say the stuff I do download is the harder find stuff, the truly out of print stuff that the artist wouldn't get paid for anyway because it's like buying it from Amoeba or whatever. I believe second-hand artists don't see shit from...but maybe I'm wrong.

I also rationalize it in that there's tons of my own content I consistently give away for free. I was in a touring band for years and yes, we'd sell CDs and t-shirts at our gigs, but we'd also give a fuck-ton of that stuff away, and since I'm not living in a mansion now, you know we never did much outside of a couple of tiny offers from indie labels...that never panned out. So that would mean I was and still am in the "hoping to get a break" club...so for me it was more important to get exposure to my shit than it was to get money for it.

My silly little comedy album is up on iTunes, and I link to it on my blog and all that shit. But honestly I still just get a thrill when people listen to my retardedness...and so if someone were to pirate or steal or illegally download my copyrighted material I'd probably not care all that much. Though getting a check for a few dollars for my hard earned work would feel equally nice.

Ultimately I think it's incumbent on both the artists and the record companies to figure out how to make the internet paradigm work for them. It's not going away any time ever. And to me it's not any different than VHS tapes or cassette taping the radio was back in the day. Underground/illegal distribution of material has always been there. Now with the internet involved, it's just way easier to get a shit-load of content fairly easy.

All that being said, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with artists saying "Hey, don't steal my shit." If they make it clear that they aren't down with it, then that's it as far as I'm concerned. But it probably won't deter everyone from doing it.

Also Jen, you're not Lars'in it. Lars is a multi-multi-millionaire who used to fully encourage kids to bootleg his shows and he just came off as a douchebag looking to put another few million into his pile. You're a hard-working artist who I'm sure doesn't have the benjamins that cockface did. You have every right to be upset that your material isn't being paid for.

[mike_b]

Hey Jen speaking of buying albums, are you still working on another one? I'd pay good money for that.

[aenemaTron]

Pirate some eyes so you can read the thread.

[Ravi]

I know a couple of people who download a lot of comedy for free, but they also go to a lot of shows, so at least they're not total leeches. Some people don't even do that. They just pirate the album and never pay anything to support the comedian.

[pg13]

For me it comes down to a simple rule.

If you can buy it, you should buy it.

If you're simply choosing NOT to buy it because you don't want to pay for it...you're an asshole.

...but, if you're downloading something that can't be bought...something out of print, something that isn't official...I don't have a problem with that.

And this comes from someone married to an intellectual property lawyer (who, of course, may not agree with my simplistic distillation of the matter at hand.)

AND this comes from someone who fought the wars in music retail during the end of "home taping" and the beginnings of "file sharing"... I think the music industry really fucked themselves with how they dealt with Napster--when Napster was the only game in town.

The music industry had pretty much eliminated "singles"--they killed off the 7", the cassingle had died and the CD-5 was dumb...but mostly, the industry was greedy...knowing that they had a song that people wanted, they chose to sell it (and 9 other songs on a full length cd) for 18 bucks rather than by itself for a couple bucks. They even turned the charts from something the people decided via sales of actual records to a mere reflection of what some radio stations decided to play (which, of course, used to be based on the charts...which lead to a few years of insane music stagnation, especially in the face of radio consolidation, and the corporate music structure we're left with...)

BUT NAPSTER offered the industry what they'd unwittingly destroyed--a way to take the temperature of the people--and give them what they needed--a way to use songs to generate album sales. Instead of shutting them down, they should have co-opted them...made the Napster download chart THE CHART...fed Napster with single songs...but demanded that they not sell whole albums.

Instead, when they squashed Napster, they made downloading into piracy...and pirates seem cool to a young person wanting to stick it to the faceless corporations raking in profits for things that could just as easily be free (if you didn't care about the actual people making the music--or other pop cultural elements--that you enjoyed.)

Now, iTunes sells songs for 99cents. Brilliant, if unnecessarily delayed--iTunes can work as a singles chart...but since they also sell whole albums, it proves to most people that you really don't need record labels...or records (physical things like CDs, etc.) any more. And it's DESTROYED the idea that owning physical things (and enjoying the art work, lyric sheets and all of the things that fed the "I am my record collection" mentality that fed the music industry for generations)...matters.

And, of course, you can't put the genie back in the bottle...when people get used to downloading whatever they want for free without caring, treating music as something they're entitled to and making the value of music the time it takes you delete whatever you're done with and downloading the next thing that strikes your momentary whim, it's hard to wag your finger at them and hope that their sense of shame makes them "put them back."

I feel Jen's pain...but there's probably little that SHE can do about it, other than voice her frustrations here to some people who should have more empathy than most to her predicament.

BUT--being pro-active...something COULD be done. If effort was made into putting together a place where you can SAMPLE what you you decide to offer, linked to the ability to buy the WHOLE piece...that could change the game. I'm not talking about it being just on an individual artist's page...but a communal place that everyone can go to find almost everything that's available to be sampled...linking them to what's available to be purchased...THAT'S, at least, smart traditional marketing married to new technology.

It takes away the "oh, but it's good publicity to let people try it out for free and maybe then they'll buy it" argument from those who defend unlimited downloading.

...and if sites still post currently-in-print releases for free illegal download against the wishes of the artists in question...fuck them...and fuck everyone who uses them.

pg--Old but not necessarily wrong.--pacific northwest

PS--I own some live Nirvana bootleg CDs myself...and the store that I used to co-manage used to sell them (we bought them from overseas distributors, where their legality, at the time, was in a gray area). Famously, it was that store that Kurt & Courtney came to one night and grabbed armfuls of said bootlegs and they walked out with them...later posting a letter in the press saying that we were "stealing macaroni & cheese out of their mouths."

On the other hand, it was also the same store where Krist Novoselic later came and bought some Nirvana bootlegs...

Make of that story anything you will...

[funkyrhino]

I will never buy pirated movies.

The ones with Johnny Depp weren't bad, Hook sucked though