Game of Thrones (book talk edition)

[Umlaut]

Uh, I reeeeally don't get the Alfie Allen criticism at all. I actually think he's doing a fantastic job. That character is such a whiny, entitled brat in the books, but he's made him a thousand times more sympathetic.

Also, if you're not seeing social commentaries on class and gender in this, that's because you're choosing not to see them. The "everyone that's brown is either savage or a criminal" is instantly shot to shit when Xaro Xan Daos, a very dignified individual and one of the 13 elders of Qarth, vouched for Dany and let her into the city (edit: by the way, character was Qartheen (that is, very pale and white) in the books, he was changed to be a Summer Islander like Sallador Saan for the show to give more diversity and probably combat this conception). There isn't a single healthy female sexual relationship? Well, there are a few unhealthy ones, but otherwise, the show isn't really about that? I mean, that would be a valid criticism of Girls, but this isn't Game of Love Thrones. The writing is lazy and uninspired? Hey StrangeLight, I think you don't like this show and should probably stop watching it? Maybe? Seems like it's not for you and you are now just pulling reasons to hate it from a Reasons To Hate Something Tree and applying them to this show, when they don't at all apply.

That being said, I'm pretty upset at the Joffrey+Whores scene because it was soooo fucking unnecessary. WE GET IT already. I had defended the writers' use of Ros to book nerds on the Internet, anticipating some kind of long term payoff or dot connecting from the books that she'd be used for, but I'm starting to turn my opinion towards the writers not always having to shoehorn her into every episode. And we don't even get a resolution for that horrifying bit! There's a scene later with Tyrion that ostensibly happens days later, after Joffrey said they'd take the whore's corpse to him that night, and he doesn't even mention it! Just really upsetting and needless.

Besides the smoke monster birth, the introduction to Harrenhall, and the meeting between Renly and Stannis, I actually much preferred episode 3 to this one. "Wake up you lazy sons of whores! There are men outside who want to fuck your corpses!!"

[funnyclown]

That Joffrey and the whores scene was pretty poor (if you're going to make him a monster, at least have him make her fuck the other one with the huge phallus instead of just beating her with it). But other than that and numerous times throughout the series where Ive had no idea what the fuck anyone was talking about (usually involving Mayor Carcetti--oh yeah, another problem is I think I've learned about 2 characters' names so far), I think this is an excellent TV show. It's not high art and it's not political or deep in any meaningful way, and the gratuitous sex and nudity cheapens it in the same way it's cheapened every HBO production since the days of Benben, but so far at least, it's moved along at a very good pace, interesting things keep happening, the acting is at worst solid but can be great (Sean Bean's performance was what won me over initially), and it's an amazing visual accomplishment for TV. Way more compelling to me than Boardwalk Empire, and I say this as someone who loves US history but who's never had any interest in fantasy stuff ever. Game of Thrones is going to be talked about for a long time. At least by me. 92% on my tomatomometer.

[anantp]

It's been a while since I read the second book. Was Renly gay in the books? I don't remember that part at all.

Never actually outwardly mentioned, but heavily hinted since the first book. i.e. "Praying long hours with Loras". "Rainbow Guard".

[Umlaut]

Also it's evident in (serious, big time spoilers for those who haven't read the books ahead, do not click for reals)

Spoiler:  

how affected by Renly's death Loras is. Joining the Kingsguard so he doesn't have to marry (because he won't love again) and wanting to immediately kill Brienne when he confronts her in A Storm of Swords before Jamie intervenes. They are more than "best bro" feelings between them.

But it is never outwardly stated, and many people who had read all the books intently were still surprised when Loras was all blowin' Renly last season.

[isoS]

The Joffrey scene was important, because for a minute I thought, "Oh yeah, maybe he does just need to get laid." But nope, he's a straight-up sadist. Also, Tyrion was extending an olive branch of sorts, having just stood up to (and thus disrespected) Joffrey at court. Bronn had a good and interesting idea about how to placate Joffrey, and it might have worked, if Joffrey weren't a monster. (Yes, we already knew he was a monster, but even monsters have weaknesses -- now we know that sex isn't one for this kid, once again proving he's not Robert's son.) This has implications for Tyrion and his ability (or inability) to manage the king, so it served a narrative purpose. If it was gruesome and hard to stomach, well, that's Game of Thrones.

[funnyclown]

If it was gruesome and hard to stomach, well, that's Game of Thrones.

My problem with it was that it was ineffective coming right after what I thought was a MUCH more twisted scene with Sansah (that's her name, right?). I think they could have accomplished what the scene accomplished by either doing it in 10 seconds and not showing us anything (since we don't see the real violence anyway), or go all out and disgust us. Instead, they gave us soft core porn and bad fake crying. Bah, I say.

[TimBuktu]

I guess I just never picked up on any of the Loras stuff, either because I'm a dummy, or because it's hard trying to track 1500 characters.

[suavepebble]

Anyone else impressed by the actress playing "Kat"? (The redheaded momlady of the wolfboy and widower of the dead guy for those who doon't know any of the names.)

Her read of the line "Get out" while staring at her dead husband's remains was flawless and that one moment alone puts her in the running for a golden whatever, I dunno.

[Americas Team]

The Joffrey scene was important, because for a minute I thought, "Oh yeah, maybe he does just need to get laid." But nope, he's a straight-up sadist. Also, Tyrion was extending an olive branch of sorts, having just stood up to (and thus disrespected) Joffrey at court. Bronn had a good and interesting idea about how to placate Joffrey, and it might have worked, if Joffrey weren't a monster. (Yes, we already knew he was a monster, but even monsters have weaknesses -- now we know that sex isn't one for this kid, once again proving he's not Robert's son.) This has implications for Tyrion and his ability (or inability) to manage the king, so it served a narrative purpose. If it was gruesome and hard to stomach, well, that's Game of Thrones.

I agree with everything here. It was tough to see but most was left to the imagination. This show is not always gruesome. It just prays on your nightmares.

I don't think this show is lazily written by any stretch. That was a super well written and structured scene. It also plays against what people have come to expect from Game of Thrones, lots of sex. I was like "Sweet this is the hot sex scene for the week with two ladies." (And I'm sure I wasn't the only one thinking that before you judge me.) Then they turn it on its ear.

The thing is he is totally non sexual in that scene. It is all about power. He had no desire to have sex with them and being someone who was once his age that is totally fucked up. He would rather watch two women murder each other than fuck them. He could at least have sex with them first or while they're doing that mean stuff. It doesn't interest him and that makes him really scary to me.

It also sets up the return of Stark's body. The Lanisters are slowly learning that Joffrey as king may destroy them. For now they can circumvent some of his commands but as he gets older he won't have to listen to his grandfather or mother any more. Can they somehow remove him and keep power?

[Teaflax]

I think GoT is really tightly written. They get a tremendous amount of information across in each episode, something you don't really notice until you read recaps that make every episode sound like it 3was a two-hour movie. There's an economy to most scenes that's really admirable and some great moments of humor, poignancy and character-building. I agree that the Joffrey and The Whores scene wasn't the best, but I'd say it's a minor stumble overall.

[ArchStanton]

ast be full of puritanical old ladies.

[TimBuktu]

I think the most impressive thing about the show, having read the books, is that they are able to communicate the core ideas of plot points in a really compressed time frame. The Theon Greyjoy stuff with his sister and dad went on forever in the book, but they captured what a shit Theon is... and his relationship with his family... perfectly in about 10 minutes of screen time.

Also, about "we get it" with Joffrey.... he's possibly the worst person in the series as far as being a horrible person. They are trying to compress a lot of other events together. Get over it.

[Kentock]

Game of Thrones is great! Topic already discussed!

[Kon Darp]

I've started watching the show Spartacus, and thus am no longer off-put by the amount of nudity and sex in this show. It almost seems restrained by comparison.

I also enjoy hearing people complain about being uncomfortable with a scene that's supposed to make you uncomfortable. I found the "Rat that claws through your chest" torture scene to be a lot more troubling.

[ImAScooby]

Anyone else impressed by the actress playing "Kat"? (The redheaded momlady of the wolfboy and widower of the dead guy for those who doon't know any of the names.)

Her read of the line "Get out" while staring at her dead husband's remains was flawless and that one moment alone puts her in the running for a golden whatever, I dunno.

The actress is great but I have a feeling that her performance is so subtle that most award show voters wont even think of her and instead go for someone like Peter Dinklage, who is also great but makes you think of his acting.

[Umlaut]

I also enjoy hearing people complain about being uncomfortable with a scene that's supposed to make you uncomfortable. I found the "Rat that claws through your chest" torture scene to be a lot more troubling.

My issue wasn't with it making me uncomfortable, it was with feeling it was unnecessary. However, as much as he is usually quite dumb and off-base, Berliner has justified it well enough in his response. My issue wasn't even with that specific scene, but with that scene in the context of several Ros scenes this season and feeling they are relying on her too much and wanting to know where they're going with it. I still love this show and all the titties on it very much.

The "rat that claws through your chest," by contrast, was very necessary to give you a sense of this NEW location and these characters you were meeting for the first time or reintroducing yourself to in the case of the Mountain. My original criticism was about no new character information being conveyed in the Joffrey+Whores scene. But I suppose it does give a new dimension to Joffrey's sadism, I'm just wondering what relevance that will have to his arc that made the scene so necessary and not just there for shock value.

This show is still the second best show on TV right now, and that's just because Mad Men.

[Monty]

The "rat that claws through your chest," by contrast, was very necessary to give you a sense of this NEW location and these characters you were meeting for the first time or reintroducing yourself to in the case of the Mountain.

It also provided an interesting contrast to Robb, earlier in the episode, refusing to torture prisoners. I wish they hadn't used rats in a bucket, though, since that's straight out of 1984.

[ImAScooby]

It's also straight out of 2 Fast 2 Furious.

[ImAScooby]

It is also a real torture method used in the medieval times and George R. R. Martin likes to keep things like that as realistic as possible even though it is a fantasy series.

[aenemaTron]

I thought 1984 was rats inside an elongated catcher's mask, what for scratchings of the face? (Also, was that all chemically induced? Answer or I'll pretend to help you up but instead put a dagger through your neck, like as a goof.)