Art vs Artist & Politics

[Teaflax]

Yay. I've had riffing abstinence since watching the second CT and my stupid, stupid morals have kept me away from Rifftrax.

[Darryl]

Yay. I've had riffing abstinence since watching the second CT and my stupid, stupid morals have kept me away from Rifftrax.

Are you sure "morals" is the right word?

[Teaflax]

I'm pretty sure that morals is the right word. What else do you call it when you willingly forgo something you really enjoy because you can't stomach its association with someone who defends torture, war, racial profiling and wearing Chuck Taylors that are half a size too small in order to make a point?

[disl]

i don't mean to be rude, but what? i have no idea what's going on right now.

[Teaflax]

James Lileks - rightist blogger and "humorist" co-riffed with Mike Nelson on Spiderman 3. Lileks is pretty much in the same camp as Coulter, Limbaugh and Malkin. I wrote a longer screed on the old board, complete with odious quotes from Lileks, including fun jokes about how the French surrender, Kerry was obviously the candidate the terrorists wanted to win the last election and people who are all worried about torture should just grow a spine and other crap like that.

And the Chuck Taylors story is absolutely unbelievable.

[Darryl]

Ah, thanks for the explanation, Teaflax. I thought you were talking about something internal to the Joel vs. Mike stuff.

Your reasons are your reasons, and I can respect you for that even if I disagree. But on the other hand, I watch movies by directors and actors that I have serious political and moral disagreements with. In fact, my brother absolutely can not and will not watch certain actors or go to movies by certain directors. I generally agree with his reasons, but I'm guess I'm able to compartmentalize it, and I think he is missing out on some things he would find entertaining and enlightening.

As far as jokes about the French surrendering... there's not a comedian alive who hasn't made those jokes. The point is... they are jokes! I laugh at comedians and movies (and MST, RiffTrax, and CT stuff!) that attack my own politics, religion, and morals. But, funny is funny. I'll laugh at a good joke at the expense of "my" candidate or "my" issue any time; as long as it's actually a good joke.

Disclaimer: I didn't hear the Spidey 3 riff yet. But do keep in mind that a joke like "stop worrying abut torture and grow a spine!" are not jokes in favor of torture; they are parodies of those who may hold those beliefs. Being said as a joke is a lot different than being said in a speech.

I think sometimes we all let our own passions get the better of us. I would never try to convince anyone otherwise. But in the context of the spirit of this board, all I can say is Rifftrax is hilarious. I have nothing to gain by encouraging anyone to listen to what they offer. I just like people to have the opportunity to laugh.

[Teaflax]

Lileks didn't joke about torture, he specifically endorsed it as a legitimate tool for information gathering and posited that anyone who complained about it should stop being so squeamish because it could save Cleveland from blowing up, or somesuch. And neither was he joking when he said:

Let's just be blunt: The North Koreans would love to see John Kerry win the election. The mullahs of Iran would love it. The Syrian Ba'athists would sigh with relief. Every enemy of America would take great satisfaction if the electorate rejects the Bush doctrine and scuttles back to hide under the U.N. Security Council's table. It's a hard question, but the right one: Which candidate does our enemy want to lose? George W. Bush.

That's either some really impressive - if misguided - mind-reading going on there - or a stunningly disingenuous show of bad faith in those who don't share his blindly hawkish view of the world.

They will hate Bush more than Osama bin Laden, right up until the day the Islamists target mixed-gender schools, abortion clinics and gay-rights counseling centers.

Haha! Get it, because the LIEberals only turn against those who destroy their effete, elitist institutions.That's comedy GOLD!

The new Spanish government will soon meet with Germany and France to craft a "European" approach to terrorism. Topic No. 1: How big should the white flag be? Oak or cedar for the pole?

Oh, what a knee-slapper. Because - get it - anyone who dares think that the war in Iraq was a really bad idea just wants to roll out the red carpet for the moslem takeover. They are weak and spineless. I bet they think torture is all bad too. Wimps.

Jokes built on premises that are erroneous or offensive need to be a whole lot sharper and funnier than anything Lileks has ever written to even begin to work. He's just Ann Coulter Lite, diluted by trying to be Dave Barry.

I have plenty of respect for principled people with opposing political viewpoints, but in order for me to find that respect, I kind of need them to at least be in the ball park when it comes to human decency and showing the other side some minor respect back. Lileks isn't even close.

I generally do my best not to further the careers of religious homophobes like Mel Gibson and cultists like Tom Cruise. Those are no great loss to me, to be honest. But giving up on Rifftrax, which I have actively championed almost from day one, really hurts (that, and Beck).

Evidently, most people just don't care. On the Rifftrax boards pretty much everyone was saying "Who cares if it was Ann Coulter? As long as it's funny!" I disagree, obviously.

[Jenny]

I generally do my best not to further the careers of religious homophobes like Mel Gibson and cultists like Tom Cruise. Those are no great loss to me, to be honest. But giving up on Rifftrax, which I have actively championed almost from day one, really hurts (that, and Beck).

Evidently, most people just don't care. On the Rifftrax boards pretty much everyone was saying "Who cares if it was Ann Coulter? As long as it's funny!" I disagree, obviously.

Really? Likeis seems to be known more for his non- political humor columns than his screeds. Mike is conservative,but he did a trak with Neil Patrick Harris for chrissakes. And with Beck, there was one comment he made about how he thought some scientology therapy worked,but he's not necessairly Tom Cruise. If you're so uncomfortable about these things, write to rifftraxs about how you feel. Can you still bring yourself to listen to old ones at least?

[Darryl]

I'm with Jenny on this one. I'm not sure if the Likeks quotes are from his Rifftrax appearance, or his blog or wherever. I have no clue about him other than the Gallery of Regrettable Food. (And I am totally lost on what's so offensive about the Chuck Taylor story, but whatever.)

I understand the decision to not financially support those whose beliefs offend you. I don't donate to causes that oppose my views. But I buy apples from my grocer, without wondering about his political views. Then there's the whole "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" issue.

I think you are letting someone you consider to be a jerk (or worse) deprive you of a lot of fun. Why let him win? Just don't listen to his stuff. Heck, you don't even have to listen to Mike Nelson. There are a number of RiffTrax without him.

Or not. It's up to you.

[Teaflax]

Beck is a grade-a Scientologist born into the cult, I'm afraid. He's in deep, not just some vague dabbler.

And, yeah, Mike may be a conservative, but apart from calling Nancy Pelosi "hard left" (which is like calling mayonnaise spicy) in a riff once, it doesn't really come through in his work. And I have never seen him say or even imply that Democrats and war-opposers are traitors and that torture is just fine. So...so far, I have no problem with his politics at all.

I've posted on the Rifftrax boards about my dismay at seeing an extremist like Lileks show up as a co-riffer, and I'm sure someone within the Rifftrax organization has read it. But like I noted, no else really seems to care and I get no backup on how wrong it is to associate with someone like that, even to the point where people are saying that any hateful rightie would be fine by them as long as they brought the funny.

Lileks is in fact quite well known for his political punditry, has had political columns on right-wing sites (and in some daily, I believe) and is often quoted approvingly on the far right end of the blogosphere.

So, its not just a case of a funny guy who happens to have some sordid views that are somewhat hidden in the depth of his oeuvre. The hatred and fear of the other is a solid part of his schtick and schpiel and though it may have waned since the 2006 elections, it's still a clear part of his legacy.

[Teaflax]

I think you are letting someone you consider to be a jerk (or worse) deprive you of a lot of fun. Why let him win? Just don't listen to his stuff. Heck, you don't even have to listen to Mike Nelson. There are a number of RiffTrax without him.

Or not. It's up to you.

I know it's up to me, and in a sense it annoys me that I have such principles. But I would just feel sick gladly supporting a business that employs and works with someone like that.

I'm genuinely curious; where would you draw the line? You really would go buy an apple from the grocer who you kept hearing saying that the faggots should burn in hell and that torture's too good for any damned muslim? Wouldn't you feel at least a little sick giving him your money? Or even his business partner, the other guy in the store who never says anything, because you knew you were indirectly supporting the bigot?

So, when it comes to art, one should just completely ignore what the people involved think? I mean, I know Gary Sinise and Kelsey Grammer are pretty far to the right, but I enjoy much of their work nonetheless. I make the assumption that they are principled and reasonable, because I have never heard either one of them say something particularly bigoted or offensive. Lileks has plenty on his conscience, however.

[uber-h]

I know it's up to me, and in a sense it annoys me that I have such principles. But I would just feel sick gladly supporting a business that employs and works with someone like that.

I'm genuinely curious; where would you draw the line? You really would go buy an apple from the grocer who you kept hearing saying that the faggots should burn in hell and that torture's too good for any damned muslim? Wouldn't you feel at least a little sick giving him your money? Or even his business partner, the other guy in the store who never says anything, because you knew you were indirectly supporting the bigot?

So, when it comes to art, one should just completely ignore what the people involved think? I mean, I know Gary Sinise and Kelsey Grammer are pretty far to the right, but I enjoy much of their work nonetheless. I make the assumption that they are principled and reasonable, because I have never heard either one of them say something particularly bigoted or offensive. Lileks has plenty on his conscience, however.

Well, as long as we're going with the grocer analogy...

You like your grocer and his products, but his supplier of oranges always rants about things that you can't stand. The grocer doesn't do this. So it would seem that you could choose not to buy oranges, thus expressing your disapproval to the grocer and supplier, but continue to buy and like the grocer's other, non-orange products. Does that make sense?

[Darryl]

I know it's up to me, and in a sense it annoys me that I have such principles. But I would just feel sick gladly supporting a business that employs and works with someone like that.

I'm genuinely curious; where would you draw the line? You really would go buy an apple from the grocer who you kept hearing saying that the faggots should burn in hell and that torture's too good for any damned muslim? Wouldn't you feel at least a little sick giving him your money? Or even his business partner, the other guy in the store who never says anything, because you knew you were indirectly supporting the bigot?

So, when it comes to art, one should just completely ignore what the people involved think? I mean, I know Gary Sinise and Kelsey Grammer are pretty far to the right, but I enjoy much of their work nonetheless. I make the assumption that they are principled and reasonable, because I have never heard either one of them say something particularly bigoted or offensive. Lileks has plenty on his conscience, however.

I respectfully won't comment about this subject any more beyond this. I come here for comedy, and I don't want to encourage or partake in political debates. I'm glad you have principals, and so do I.

But thinking in extremes is another matter. Saying I will buy and apple from someone regardless of politics does not mean I will buy an apple from someone who [insert extreme reprehensible behavior here]. Nor is enjoying art or entertainment from someone of opposing views the same thing as saying you have to "just completely ignore what the people involved think."

None of us can give an absolute definition of where the line is every time. We all have our levels of tolerance, we all have "gray areas," and we all have out "last straw" moments. It sounds like you reached yours with RiffTrax, and that's fine.

My one and only purpose here on AST is to "find the funny" (as Pardo would say) and maybe point others to the funny. The age old reality of life is that there are hateful, intolerant ***holes on both ends of the political spectrum. I don't spend too much time time or energy on them. I'm old enough to have seen the futility of it.

Although I still think you can find a lot to laugh at on RiffTrax, I totally understand the feeling of being so distracted or annoyed by certain issues that it makes enjoyment impossible. I can respect that. I've been there. But I'll stick to my original opinion that RiffTrax has plenty of great stuff, regardless of the other issues.

[Jenny]

Beck is a grade-a Scientologist born into the cult, I'm afraid. He's in deep, not just some vague dabbler.

And, yeah, Mike may be a conservative, but apart from calling Nancy Pelosi "hard left" (which is like calling mayonnaise spicy) in a riff once, it doesn't really come through in his work. And I have never seen him say or even imply that Democrats and war-opposers are traitors and that torture is just fine. So...so far, I have no problem with his politics at all.

.

I recall him briefly touching on his faith in an interview and disregarded atheism in a slightly extreme manner,but he also said he was still working out his own views. As good ol Darryl said, you can easily just listen to every other one,but spiderman 3.

[Teaflax]

I might possibly go back to Rifftrax when they publicly admit that working with a political extremist was a mistake. Since no one but me (and two other guys I've seen posting on The Pirate Bay) even care, that's not fucking likely.

So hanging and working with outspoken torture supporters = okay in most people's books.

I'm sorry, but that's just horrifically depressing, but it does kind of explain how in a few years it's gone from "it's not really torture" to "it's okay to torture people if you're one of the good guys" without people reacting except for a few to tut-tut in disapproval.

[Ivan]

[youtube]p8_FOQ7-P30[/youtube]

[smartbunny]

I own some James Lileks books. The one about food and the one about decorating in the 70's. No politics.

[TimBuktu]

huh?

[Jenny]

I might possibly go back to Rifftrax when they publicly admit that working with a political extremist was a mistake. Since no one but me (and two other guys I've seen posting on The Pirate Bay) even care, that's not fucking likely.

So hanging and working with outspoken torture supporters = okay in most people's books.

I'm sorry, but that's just horrifically depressing, but it does kind of explain how in a few years it's gone from "it's not really torture" to "it's okay to torture people if you're one of the good guys" without people reacting except for a few to tut-tut in disapproval.

I still think that's a tad dogmatic: Maybe Mike chose him because of his other humor columns. That and you're on pirate bay? There's a giant debate about it on another board I poke at. I really don't think they're gonna admit unless someone actually shows them the comments you posted.

[Jack]

I might possibly go back to Rifftrax when they publicly admit that working with a political extremist was a mistake. Since no one but me (and two other guys I've seen posting on The Pirate Bay) even care, that's not fucking likely.

I think it's more depressing that you are torturing yourself over this minor issue that has little-to-no impact on the larger political debate. Let's say they refused to have James Lileks on: What would that impact? Nothing. They did have him on... But ultimately his opinion means nothing. There's nobody at Guantanamo Bay who is on break, watching this specific Rifftrax episode who is saying, "I like that James Lileks... This inspires me to electrocute this guys balls a few seconds more..."

So hanging and working with outspoken torture supporters = okay in most people's books.

Who cares? The reality is nobody you know or work with have the same opinions about anything. In fact, what is horrific about politics nowadays is how much people don't want to mix. Everything is polarizing nowadays that even if you are not polarized to one side or the other someone will gladly paint you one color or the other.

I'm sorry, but that's just horrifically depressing, but it does kind of explain how in a few years it's gone from "it's not really torture" to "it's okay to torture people if you're one of the good guys" without people reacting except for a few to tut-tut in disapproval.

The issue is that the U.S. suffered a horrific terrorist attack in 2001, got the sympathy of the world, but had a dingbat in office who used this anger and rage to manipulate and force the world into a situation that makes Vietnam look good in comparison. It's amazing to think how much sympathy we had back then, and how sick everyone is of the U.S. now.

The reality is that even if you are against Bush and his policies and thought he was always an idiot, it's still hard to swallow the absolute level of depravity and lies the Bush administration committed during this fragile time. Nixon did nothing in comparison. And Clinton went through impeachment proceedings because of a blowjob? We live in crazy times and sometimes after an accident or disaster one goes into shock and can't fully process it. In 5-10 years expect a Time magazine cover about this whole mess along the lines of "What went wrong?"

We're also at a point where—in all honesty—the damage has been done. And there's not much to do now but wait for this dink to leave office. Which is why everyone in the U.S. is focused on the next election.

So in all honesty, if James Lileks thinks torture is great then whatever. Was he funny on Rifftrax? Because that's what matters; the funny. I don't know because I find the whole MST3K/Rifftrax concept to be hack and never truly funny so I'd never expose myself to it more than I already have.