Mad Men

[crlygrl]

Season 2 starts tonight and I'm excited. I hear they fast-forwarded the plot into two years into the future.

I seem to remember that some other ASTers liked this too, so I thought I'd start a thread.

Also, I have a girl crush on Christina Hendricks:

http://z.about.com/d/tvdramas/1/0/F/U/madmen-chrishend.jpg

[gigglechick]

i love this show. hadn't seen it, then 2 weeks ago watched all the episodes On Demand.

addicted.

[Itslikeimsayin]

Is it too much to ask for at least one minor story arc to be completed in an episode? I feel like absolutely nothing happened in this episode.

[Jouster]

Still great.

ILIS - it was the premiere episode. I'm not sure what the problem is. Unless you're asking about arcs from season one. Also, the photocopier "arc" was resolved (hey, you said minor).

[nadsat droog]

The new episode felt very stylized compared to last season, and I liked it a lot. The montages were really cool, especially the opening with "Let's Twist Again". I think a lot happened in this episode without happening at all. Don Draper, although seemingly still on top of his game, is beginning to lose his luster because of his unwillingness to acknowledged the American youth movement. It didn't really point us down one direction, but I think it sets us up for a season that focuses on change as a whole.

[crlygrl]

And, Betty is gonna get saucy with a cute older mechanic.

Or at least it seems so...

I'm also looking forward to Pete's impending breakdown.

[Babychoby]

I love this show! I'm so excited it's back. I haven't watched the new episodes yet cuz my future mother in law is in town and only watches PBS and home improvement shows and says that rock and roll music gives her heart palpitations. My mother on the the other hand had me smoke my first joint (in utero) at a Jimmy Hendricks concert. They would NOT have gotten along I think.

[Bucky_Sinister]

I love this show! I'm so excited it's back. I haven't watched the new episodes yet cuz my future mother in law is in town and only watches PBS and home improvement shows and says that rock and roll music gives her heart palpitations. My mother on the the other hand had me smoke my first joint (in utero) at a Jimmy Hendricks concert. They would NOT have gotten along I think.

Hendrix.

How much time elapsed between the seasons? It didn't look like two years. And when they were talking about Peggy, it seemed it hadn't been that long.

Also, is the Frank O'Hara poem he quoted at the end of the episode available online? I don't remember enough of it right now to search for it. I know it's from Meditations in an Emergency, but that's about it.

[Jouster]

15 months.

I couldn't find the poem online, but I know it's the last one in the book and it's entitled "Mayakovsky."

[angryrobot]

I hope they know what they are doing. I would have liked to see at least one more season of 50's - everybody knows their place - America, I found it fascinating. I don't think I'm ready for this show to go all counter-culture on me. In my opinion that's the part of the sixties that has been done to death. Hopefully the producers will find a fresh, unique angle to portray but this is well-worn territory and they better be going there for the right reasons - not just to get a larger audience.

[crlygrl]

I hope they know what they are doing. I would have liked to see at least one more season of 50's - everybody knows their place - America, I found it fascinating. I don't think I'm ready for this show to go all counter-culture on me. In my opinion that's the part of the sixties that has been done to death. Hopefully the producers will find a fresh, unique angle to portray but this is well-worn territory and they better be going there for the right reasons - not just to get a larger audience.

I dunno. Did you watch the episode last night? I thought it was done well...

[isoS]

I think the fresh, unique angle will be showing the counter-culture movement from the perspective of corporate old schoolers and their suburban families, of which Draper is a card-carrying member. That's what you never see in the cliché-ridden '60s movies and TV shows: beyond the love-ins and protests, what we think of as conservative '50s America survived in boardrooms and subdivisions nation-wide. (Actually, for all its sentimentality, "The Wonder Years" did a decent job of showing how the '60s was not all long hair and bell-bottoms.) While he may be wrestling with deep-seeded conformist angst and fighting the instinct towards self-discovery, I don't expect Don to suddenly be wearing tie-dye and running through Central Park singing "Age of Aquarius" any time soon.

And to its credit, this show has never been about only one thing. I expect "youth movement vs. the status quo" will be one thread among many running through the series. In a broader sense, the show is about identity in America: how it's defined (by job, by marriage, by lifestyle), how its rules are constantly changing, and yet in many ways immutable, and how it can haunt those who seek to manipulate it.

[waxpop]

Loved the first season and the new episode. I'm excited to see Betty coming into her own, even if that means sexually taunting a mechanic.

Also, I found this via Videogum today.

The Top 10 Un-Pc Moments On Mad Men
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Me9V37FPNe8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Me9V37FPNe8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Jouster]

Mad Men doubled its season one average viewership last night (http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/content_display/news/cable-tv/e3i4cd5f32aaae3c5f45babddba40bed2ad)

[littlegirltree]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the fact that Dick was significantly younger than Don? In the flashbacks it looks as though Don might be a good 10 years older than Dick. So when Dick took over Don's place, he suddenly had to live his life as a man 10 years his senior, right? I wonder if the issue of a young man trapped in an older man's life will end up factoring into Dick/Don's storyline...

[Bucky_Sinister]

Mad Men doubled its season one average viewership last night (http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/content_display/news/cable-tv/e3i4cd5f32aaae3c5f45babddba40bed2ad)

Thanks for the O'Hara tip, Jouster.

I hadn't watched Mad Men until it hit On Demand. I like watching shows from the first episode in order. So if I hear about a show midseason, I wait for the DVD or the On Demand to tune in.

I think that Comcast (and likely other services) running the full season on On Demand attributed to the doubling in ratings. It allowed us Mad-Men-Come-Latelys to catch up with the rest of the crowd.

There are many things about this show I loved. But one of the things that really impressed me was the Pete Campbell character. I started off hating him, not as a person, but as a shallow plot device type character. Then they filled him out. There were reasons to not like his character as a person, but also reasons to sympathize.

After that, I started to see that in a lot of characters. They were filled out with flaws and good attributes, character defects and hidden strengths. I think this is what hooked me on the show. No one's all good or all bad, or beyond "rooting for" or "rooting against." It's what has hooked me in the past in shows like The Wire, The Shield, The Sopranos, and so forth.

[isoS]

No one's all good or all bad, or beyond "rooting for" or "rooting against."

Except Peggy. She's allll good.

(that wasn't meant to sound creepy)

[nathansmart]

so, do we think she got an abortion or what?

[crlygrl]

so, do we think she got an abortion or what?

She had a kid in the last episode of season 1. It seems she didn't know she was pregnant...

[nathansmart]

oh wait
that's right - I forgot that she had the kid already..

last season is a blur for me...

[ericluxury]

Just a slight thing I'd mention, the show is now in '61? Thats arguably less of a time for counter-culture than '59. At that point, the beatniks had receded and Buddy Holly, etc's death and Elvis' cartoonish film career meant rock n roll had faded quite a bit compared to pop music (remember Harrison Ford's speech in American Graffiti, that is the same time period as Mad Men is in now). In the show's timeline, it's 2 years until JFK's assassination and 3 until the Beatles come to America. And, as iSos said, the show will keep its perspective in mainstream America where counter-culture didn't hit for an even longer time. So unless the show lasts 5 seasons and continues it's two year jump every time, it will not be a show about the counter-culture. And thank god!

Also, I like that the show precedes at its own pace. Most shows that go that slow are boring, but Mad Men isn't. It's kind of nice that the show finds a way to be interesting while avoiding being the kind of show where each episode delves into a particular client/advertisement. They avoid showing you the seams.

[Jouster]

The episode started on Valentine's Day, 1962.

[isoS]

We live in a time when everyone is always talking about their feelings -- talk shows and reality TV are practically built on that. What I love about Mad Men is that Don doesn't. It's not healthy, but from a dramatic perspective it's refreshing. It forces the show's producers to find more interesting and cinematic ways of revealing what's going on beneath the surface.

[ericluxury]

ah...well, my point remains, we are still a ways from the counter culture

We live in a time when everyone is always talking about their feelings -- talk shows and reality TV are practically built on that. What I love about Mad Men is that Don doesn't. It's not healthy, but from a dramatic perspective it's refreshing. It forces the show's producers to find more interesting and cinematic ways of revealing what's going on beneath the surface.

Thats a great point.
Sometimes I wonder if the 'it's not healthy' part of that statement will always be something we take as a given.

[mezmorized]

Sorry for the long post.

Whoever says nothing happened in the first episode wasn't fully paying attention. A lot happened. Maybe not, Peggy giving birth or Don being found out by Pete big, but enough to tie up old threads and start some new ones.

It's clear that the strain of Don's work is taking it's toll on Betty. Towards the end of last season she reveals (to her shrink) that she knows about Don's affairs, though it seems she said that only to stur arousel in the shrink, but later came to terms with what she had said. This episode furthered that acknoledgement with the mechanic scene and the hotel bedroom scene. It's clear that their relationship isn't what it use to and I don't think Don's completely aware of that. Betty doesn't look at Don as that knight in shining armor when he would walk through the door as she use to and her rediscovering her old roommate and her profession started to kindle the fire within her. I'd be safe in assuming Betty has an affair by the end of the season.

Pete, well he's screwed. Their trying for a child, he's already got one (I think Peggy still has the child) and there's new talent coming to work. I too, can't wait to see how he breaks down.

I'm not to worried about the counter culture stuff ruining what was so great about the first season's 50's style, but you can't help but be intrigued by the power struggles that is going to create. I think it will be a bigger part of the secondary characters plots (the characters that work directly under Don and Duck), because it's their jobs that are getting fucked with.

What makes this show great in my opinion is the patience each of the stories had. Sinister nailed it when he said their aren't all good or all bad people and I think that is partly because of the patience in revealing information. I'd be worried if it became a "Lost" type show where I'm expecting huge revelations each episode. It's a slow burn and I like that. It's very much the style of how the show is shot, acted and colored.

The voice over thing was a little weird for me. I really liked how it was done, but it caught me off guard. Talk about big. There's your big moment. We're finally in Don's head.

[BFH]

The following may come off as me nitpicking, being contrary, or being a know-it-all. Them's the breaks.

And, Betty is gonna get saucy with a cute older mechanic.
I disagree, I think this scene was just a bookend to when Betty discovered her old roomie was now a high end prostitute. The scene with the mechanic was Betty finding joy in getting back in touch with her sexuality, using it to get what she wants. Especially considering the impotence Don is suffering from.

Did anyone else read it like that? Also, did anyone else interpret Don's statement to his doctor - "I've been good" - to mean that he hasn't been sleeping around since the end of his affairs with Midge and Rachel? I drew a correlation between the end of his philandering and new appreciation for his wife with him now also losing his libido.
I would have liked to see at least one more season of 50's
Actually, the first season took place in 1960. It ended on Thanksgiving, and jumped 15 months to Valentine's Day 1962.

In the flashbacks it looks as though Don might be a good 10 years older than Dick.
The real Don Draper would be 41 in 1960, according to Pete's snooping. The actor who portrays the fake Don Draper/the real Dick Whitman is 37 years old, and the character was serving under the lieutenant Don Draper, but I don't think the age difference is supposed to be as vast as a decade. I have taken the character to be in his late 30s, and the younger staff that serves under him (Pete, Peggy, etc.) to be in their mid-to-late 20s. The actors' ages seem to support this.

So unless the show lasts 5 seasons and continues it's two year jump every time
That's the plan. (http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/07/matthew-weiner.html)

Having said all that, I was a latecomer who caught up with On Demand, too. I love the show for all the same reasons as y'all and agree with many of your theories as to where the themes are taking us.

[nadsat droog]

That's the plan. (http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/07/matthew-weiner.html)

Not necessarily: Correction: The matter of setting an end date for AMC's critical darling "Mad Men," prompted by a quote by creator Matt Weiner at TCA about his "five-year plan" for "the life of the series," seemed clear when the story was published yesterday afternoon. From a lengthy exchange discussing Weiner's quote with AMC: "So to be clear, [Matthew Weiner] plans 5 seasons, covering 10 years, with jumps between each season." AMC: "Yes!"

But AMC now says Weiner never meant to reveal a specific timeline for the show. He meant that he plans to continue having timeline jumps between the seasons.This is also brought up in the AV Club's interview with Matt Weiner (http://www.avclub.com/content/interview/mad_men_creator_matthew).

[littlegirltree]

The real Don Draper would be 41 in 1960, according to Pete's snooping. The actor who portrays the fake Don Draper/the real Dick Whitman is 37 years old, and the character was serving under the lieutenant Don Draper, but I don't think the age difference is supposed to be as vast as a decade. I have taken the character to be in his late 30s, and the younger staff that serves under him (Pete, Peggy, etc.) to be in their mid-to-late 20s. The actors' ages seem to support this.


In 1962, Dick would be 36 and Don would be 45 according to the IMDB plot synopses for the episodes revealing Don and Dick's ages.

I guess Dick stuck with his own age, afterall.

[waxpop]

I disagree, I think this scene was just a bookend to when Betty discovered her old roomie was now a high end prostitute. The scene with the mechanic was Betty finding joy in getting back in touch with her sexuality, using it to get what she wants. Especially considering the impotence Don is suffering from.

Did anyone else read it like that?

Definitely. If that mechanic shows up again I'd be surprised. It was all about Betty stretching her wings a little in the sexuality department.

Also, did anyone else interpret Don's statement to his doctor - "I've been good" - to mean that he hasn't been sleeping around since the end of his affairs with Midge and Rachel? I drew a correlation between the end of his philandering and new appreciation for his wife with him now also losing his libido.

Hmm...interesting.

Since Betty knew that her psychiatrist was passing info along to Don, are we to assume that the psychiatrist told Don that Betty knew he was having affairs? Would that knowledge alone cause Don to stop the affairs? Am I still asking questions? Where am I? It's cold here.

[BFH]

Not necessarily: This is also brought up in the AV Club's interview with Matt Weiner (http://www.avclub.com/content/interview/mad_men_creator_matthew).
I missed that correction on the article I linked, haven't read it in detail since they added that. And I didn't know there was an interview with Weiner up on AV Club, so thanks on both accounts!
In 1962, Dick would be 36 and Don would be 45 according to the IMDB plot synopses for the episodes revealing Don and Dick's ages.

I guess Dick stuck with his own age, afterall.
You're right, whatever the difference between the real Don and the fake Don's ages, I agree with you that our Don reports to others with his own real age, and apparently I missed some dialogue from the insurance doctor confirming the character's age at the beginning of the episode. Pete's comment about our Don not looking 41 (or maybe it was 43, according to your imdb research? I thought I heard him say 41 in that episode) was only in reference to the military record of the real Don, not him trying to pass himself off as older.

But according to a cursory glance of blogs I found on Google hits, there's some continuity discrepancies, just based on the years the Dons would have served in combat, how old Adam Whitman was supposed to be when he last saw Dick and how old he is supposed to be when he reunites with his older brother, etc., that makes it difficult to confirm hard numbers.

I never let that level of minutiae distract me from enjoying the show, but I do also enjoy trying to figure out the math in stuff like this. For instance, with all the breaks and jumps in years on "24," that universe's reality is much farther ahead in time than ours.


Since Betty knew that her psychiatrist was passing info along to Don, are we to assume that the psychiatrist told Don that Betty knew he was having affairs? Would that knowledge alone cause Don to stop the affairs?
I thought Don had come around on his own during the Kodak Carousel presentation, that's why he was hoping for his family to be home and not on vacation yet when he arrived home. But it's possible the psychiatrist told him, too, though I think if that were the case, it would've been referred to somehow onscreen.

[crlygrl]

Hot damn!

[kevin]

For maximum rewatchability: The First ep of the second season on Hulu. http://www.hulu.com/mad-men

[nathansmart]

Peggy just gets grosser and grosser.

[mezmorized]

Pete loses his conscience while Don gets one back? Don not only tries to defend keeping an airline that is less prestigious and thus less profitable, but he also turns down the super hot Asian waitress. It's the first time we actually see Don make a conceded effort to stay faithful to his wife and their relationship, which clearly is strained. I wonder if this is something we are going to expect from the rest of the season. Don vs Everyone. The man who wants it all, doesn't want it all anymore.

This is probably the first episode where Don was portrayed in any other light other than likable. First he's defending keeping Mohawk airlines with no success, then he yells at Cambell at a very vulnerable moment (something that is definitely going to bite Don in the ass later) and also when he tells the Mohawk guy that Sterling Cooper is going another way.

Compared to the episodes I have seen, this was a pretty funny episode. First the jokes about the plane crash, Joan and Kinsey's girlfriend I thought was funny in how awkward it was and of course Don's daughter mixing drinks for everyone.

[nadsat droog]

Woah, Don Draper! Shit got real for a second there. Talk about a "power move".

[crlygrl]

Woah, Don Draper! Shit got real for a second there. Talk about a "power move".

seriously. you're not kidding.

[davidlidsky]

Based on the discussions on Never Not Funny, I am guessing that the role Jimmy Pardo auditioned for in Mad Men was that of insult-comic Jimmy Barrett in tonight's episode. Creepy, creepy performance by the actor (Patrick Fischler) playing Jimmy Barrett.

[nadsat droog]

Creepy, creepy performance by the actor (Patrick Fischler) playing Jimmy Barrett.

Dude is creepy in everything he does. Exhibit A, from Mulholland Drive (AKA the scene that almost made me lose my shit in the theater):

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7Pdd9VBSoag&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7Pdd9VBSoag&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pdd9VBSoag)

[angryrobot]

If that Draper grab was in a movie it would have gone down as one of the top ten scenes in movie history. Well done! Anyone notice him wiping his hands with the napkin when he got back to the table?

[littlegirltree]

Don would have had Bobby Peru giggling with glee with that move. And that hand wipe was definitely noticed.

[mezmorized]

Last night episode put away all my assumptions that Don Draper went soft. The "power move" was his way of saying I'm back. As a man who is able to solve problems, he couldn't save Mohawk Airlines in the last episode but he was able to salvage the relationship of chip owners and Jimmy, and as a man who is able to reclaim what maybe still might be slipping away, shown by Betty crying in the car after the dinner.

[chapina]

Why does Judge Reinhold want to date Betty so bad?

[ericluxury]

Creepy, creepy performance by the actor (Patrick Fischler) playing Jimmy Barrett.

Pardo might not have been right for that role, but that was the first bad piece of casting I've seen on the show. Fischler was creepy, but he doesn't seem like a guy who has ever made anyone laugh.

[Ian Brill]

Pardo might not have been right for that role, but that was the first bad piece of casting I've seen on the show. Fischler was creepy, but he doesn't seem like a guy who has ever made anyone laugh.

To me he seemed like Jerry Lewis, someone who acts funny but really has a wall up. Although I think his actual act is meant to be an analogue to Don Rickles.

[Aziz]

I'm so glad someone else thought that dude was Judge Reinhold for a little while.

[Nizzles]

I had a shitty morning, ran out of gas while moving my car for street cleaning, and came in to work and re watched the premiere on hulu to get back at the world.

a great subtle thing, is Draper's MD prescribing him phenobarbitol, which was an early form of the benzo diazapam family so popular today (klonopin, valium, xanax are all it's children). (Developed by nazi's to, among other things, euthanize otherwise aryan children born with birth defects!) These drugs are widely considered more PHYSICALLY addictive than any other.

As the 60s approach and the counterculture attributes alcohol to the older (faulty) generation and mind altering "chemistry" to their own identity, Draper is again, caught in the middle. When Silverhair McBonerpants storms into Don's office saying "They say when you start drinking alone, you're an alcoholic...", in Don's reaction shot, he pops a pill before sucking back on the scotch.

And best subtext of the season so far? When Joan is in the hallway with Draper's secretary looking at the clunky xerox, "now, how do we feel about this."
her response...
"It looks good now, but it will get messy."

I can't wait.

[Dylan T]

Just watched the first episode of the series and was a little turned off by the use of "past"-humor. Draper knows Campbell stole his document from the trash and says: "I had a report just like that, and its not like there's some magical machine that makes identical copies of things."

Copy machines didn't exist back then, get it? Wink wink!

It reminded me of the NNF where Belknap called this type of joke one of the worst movie cliches ever, and I've got to agree. However, other than that very brief moment of lameness I liked it a lot. They don't bombard you with that in every episode, do they?

[Jouster]

They don't bombard you with that in every episode, do they?

No. Although the line you complained about was fine by me.

[Ian Brill]

It reminded me of the NNF where Belknap called this type of joke one of the worst movie cliches ever, and I've got to agree. However, other than that very brief moment of lameness I liked it a lot. They don't bombard you with that in every episode, do they?

I consider myself a 'knapfan but sort of disagree here. People in the past did say such things.

In the first episode there's also a moment where Roger Cooper said "we should have no true convincing the American people to like Richard Nixon." I suppose you can cringe at that line but the presidential race in 1960 was incredibly close. I wouldn't blame someone for having high hope for Nixon running up to that election.

I don't want to see comments like that shoehorned into the show (like the Picasso line from Titanic that The Knap-Attack objected to). I've seen every episode and I can't think of a moment of historical irony that arose without being part of the plot or characterization.

[nathansmart]

Plus, part of the appeal of this show is that it IS relatable to people and when stuff like that is said, it puts you right in the mindset of those characters. To those who can relate, it's a reminder of the mindset the country when they were younger. This show is about ad execs in the 60s and the transitions they have to go through when the culture is changing. If you don't point to actual events and make references and jokes (that surely plenty of Americans at the time used) then you aren't recreating the time period.

It doesn't work in something like the Titanic because that's not the point of that movie - it's a love story during a historical event. The line in question is a throwaway line. It doesn't set up anything except to make a dumb joke.

For me it's educational. That copy machine line you are talking about helped me to get a picture of the period. It didn't even dawn on me that they didn't have adequate copy methods at the time. Sure, if I was asked about it, I probably would've said no, but what a quick way to set up the technology of the day. It's another peek into the lives of the characters and all the stress of the workplace.

Maybe I'm being too forgiving since I like the show, but I just don't think it's bad...

[isoS]

My opinion is that it's only bad when you're clobbered over the head with it and it's only being done to wink at us "moderns" and make us feel smart for knowing things that have happened since the time that the story takes place. It's the same kind of cheap you find in a Dane Cook '80s reference: both are congratulating you for simply acquiring and retaining common knowledge. In "Mad Men," it's done sparingly, realistically and for a purpose: to remind us how different everything was less than 50 years ago.

[KeithTalent]

Are you guys kidding? There are TONS of those little history jokes. Yes, you can rationalize Joan showing Peggy the typewriter and saying "don't be overwhelmed by all that technology!" as something that might actually happen, but come on. We all know that's a wink at the audience. Or when that dude awkwardly mentions that a cup of coffee is 35 cents. Starbucks is more than that! There's also a lot of similarly on-the-nose dramatic irony stuff that isn't history-related, nearly everything Salvatore says for instance

They pull back on that a lot around the second half of season 1 though.


It's weird how vague they've been about what happened with the shrink. Obviously Betty told him she knows Don screws around so that he'd tell Don, and Don would have to pretend he didn't know she knows. But then he has a change of heart a year and a half later when he gets sentimental over some photos?


The voice over thing was a little weird for me. I really liked how it was done, but it caught me off guard. Talk about big. There's your big moment. We're finally in Don's head.

Frank O'Hara's, actually

[ericluxury]

Just watched the first episode of the series and was a little turned off by the use of "past"-humor. Draper knows Campbell stole his document from the trash and says: "I had a report just like that, and its not like there's some magical machine that makes identical copies of things."

Copy machines didn't exist back then, get it? Wink wink!


I don't know my copy machine history (wikipedia is pretty vague and i refuse to do more research than that), but considering the office gets a copy machine 15 months later, is it possible that a more primitive and unwieldy (thus not common) version of a copy machine existed in fall of 1960? If so that would make the comment less of a joke to the audience about there being no copiers than a joke that Draper would make to Campbell because he knows that there are copiers but they don't have one.

Honestly, I didn't notice the joke in Mad Men just like I didn't notice it in Titanic. Belknap is right that its so commonplace in period pieces that its almost like there is a rule that it has to happen.

[daveunfun]

One of my favorite dynamics on the show (that hasn't been mentioned here yet) is that Don seems to have an interest and maybe even likes the beatnik culture. I'm thinking back to the first season when he goes to the cafe. He stands out so much in his suit that wouldn't he be embarrassed to even be there? He makes snide comments about the kids, but deep down he was interested and I don't think it was just because of the girl. And then later he smokes pot and continues to hang out with the young people.

And then this season reading from "Meditations in an Emergency" and watching the French New Wave film. Both of these were done alone with no one to impress and I don't think he was just doing it for research for work.

It's interesting because with his age, status and family, he can't just "drop out" like those kids even if he wanted to and he over compensates at work by deriding the Coca Cola generation more than anyone else.

[DiscoInferiorityComplex]

Just watched the first episode of the series and was a little turned off by the use of "past"-humor. Draper knows Campbell stole his document from the trash and says: "I had a report just like that, and its not like there's some magical machine that makes identical copies of things."

Copy machines didn't exist back then, get it? Wink wink!

It reminded me of the NNF where Belknap called this type of joke one of the worst movie cliches ever, and I've got to agree. However, other than that very brief moment of lameness I liked it a lot. They don't bombard you with that in every episode, do they?

The Xerox machine already existed then. He was referring to the fact that there was only one copy of that report made, and no one else should have been privy to the information held within. Obviously, someone had been rooting around in his trash.

[megalope]

On the subject of Mad Men costumes, does anybody know where I might find one of those pointy 50s-style bras? thx

[nathansmart]

MORE DON DRAPER PAST PLEASE

[ericluxury]

I guess this show isn't very popular with people who post on torrent sites. No episode 4. Bummer. One of these days I got to get cable.

[Warhead Jones]

I guess this show isn't very popular with people who post on torrent sites. No episode 4. Bummer. One of these days I got to get cable.
I've given in to Itunes. They've been consistent so far in making them available by Monday.
This quick turn-around from airing has not been the case in the past. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the rest of the season.

Also, great episode this week. Domestic Draper. It felt like more of a transitional episode for things to come, but it was so well done.

[Liezl]

After all the mentions of this show on NNF, I've decided to give it a watch. For those who aren't on board yet, I suggest www.surfthechannel.com (http://surfthechannel.com/show/television/Mad_Men.html).

It's been my streaming replacement since tvlinks disappeared many moons ago.

The newest episode is not up yet though.

[littlegirltree]

On the subject of Mad Men costumes, does anybody know where I might find one of those pointy 50s-style bras? thx

<a href ="http://www.lamagia.co.uk/naturana/1592-satin-glamour-bullet-bra">Bullet Bras</a>

[nathansmart]

How low is Don going to sink?

[angryrobot]

Don's fine Nathan. It never happened. It will shock you how much it never happened.

[crlygrl]

I'm just waiting for season 3 or 4 when Don's little girl has a serious drinking problem. Does anyone else notice how they're setting that up?

[nathansmart]

How high is Peggy going to rise?

[Bucky_Sinister]

Just watched the first episode of the series and was a little turned off by the use of "past"-humor. Draper knows Campbell stole his document from the trash and says: "I had a report just like that, and its not like there's some magical machine that makes identical copies of things."

Copy machines didn't exist back then, get it? Wink wink!

It reminded me of the NNF where Belknap called this type of joke one of the worst movie cliches ever, and I've got to agree. However, other than that very brief moment of lameness I liked it a lot. They don't bombard you with that in every episode, do they?

I think this was most done in the Reagan era. Every movie set in the past seemed to mention him being an actor.

If you want to combat it, start talking this way in your real life. say things like "it's not like a porn star is ever going to be president." or, "have another apple. They're good for you." "What are you worried about? It's just a stupid robot."

Best episode of Season 2 last night! I love that they're filling in Betty's "lost time" between seasons.

[dan telfer]

Those references to "past humor" were most common in the first episode. Eventually it takes a back seat. There's also some line from Salvatore in the first episode that alludes to his homosexuality. He's talking about something to do with cigarettes and the new health studies and he says,

"A person living their whole life one way, but leading a secret life nobody knows about? Ridiculous!"

Guh-roan.

Not too subtle when you spell it out in such long sentences.

[nathansmart]

Best episode of Season 2 last night! I love that they're filling in Betty's "lost time" between seasons.

I like that but oh God please stop showing her in that bad makeup. I know they are trying to make her look fat but are we supposed to be disgusted as well?

[angryrobot]

I think the interplay between Don, Bobbie and Jimmy is very well done. They all have secrets from one another yet you don't know who exactly is the stooge from one minute to the next. It's like watching 3 poker players holding nothing yet determined to bluff the others into submission.

[BFH]

I like that but oh God please stop showing her in that bad makeup. I know they are trying to make her look fat but are we supposed to be disgusted as well?

That's Emmy nominated makeup, sir. (http://makeupandmonsters.com/MADMEN.html)

[mike]

Those fucking bangs make me a mad man.

[ReverendMediocre]

Was anyone else really jarred out of sync with the whole episode by their choice of music for the opening scene of tonights episode?

Also, after seeing the preview for next week I think I get what Pardo meant when he was intimidated by the largeness of the role he was auditioning for.. still, would've been sweet..

[nathansmart]

yeah, that was weird - have they played any other music that wasn't from the time period?

[mezmorized]

Anyone else questioning Peggy's baby? I've been thinking about it and there's plenty of evidence shown that the baby we have been thinking that's hers might be her sisters. In the hospital, in the episode before last night, Peggy's mother and sister visit her in the hospital and her sister is pregnant. So the baby Peggy held in church could actually be her sisters and even if Peggy had a baby, they wouldn't leave the child at home by itself if they were taking care of it. Even if she had the baby, where did it go?

Maybe I missed seeing two babies in her mothers house. When Peggy is told to see the baby, there's another kid in the room, but that kid is much older than 2 years old.

[Lil G]

If I were a gay voter, I would vote for Jon Hamm as the president of my cock.

[nathansmart]

Anyone else questioning Peggy's baby? I've been thinking about it and there's plenty of evidence shown that the baby we have been thinking that's hers might be her sisters. In the hospital, in the episode before last night, Peggy's mother and sister visit her in the hospital and her sister is pregnant. So the baby Peggy held in church could actually be her sisters and even if Peggy had a baby, they wouldn't leave the child at home by itself if they were taking care of it. Even if she had the baby, where did it go?

Maybe I missed seeing two babies in her mothers house. When Peggy is told to see the baby, there's another kid in the room, but that kid is much older than 2 years old.

there's a flashback where a doctor tells peggy that she had a baby - unless they are lying to her there's your proof

[Ian Brill]

yeah, that was weird - have they played any other music that wasn't from the time period?

Well, if you want to get specific "Don't Think Twice It's Alright" from the first season finale was from 1962 and that episode took place in 1960 (you said time period though so apparently I'm just being a dick). From reviews I've seen they wanted to use that Decemberist song before but couldn't. I guess if you have a good first season your budget for music rights gets bigger.

[ericluxury]

What a devastating episode. It could have been having just watched the RNC, but that was among the saddest episodes of the already very dour show. The mirroring of Duck abandoning his dog and Don his daughter particularly. Also Duck's sadness showing what could easily happen to Don.
On the plus side, January Jones in her bikini. She's very beautiful but rarely do they show her being sexy.

My one complaint about the season is that Joan has no story. She's so gorgeous that I wouldn't mind her being on every show, but give her a story, she's a strong character.

[isoS]

If I re-watch this ep at some point, I'm going to play "count the mirrors." Lots of shots going from reflection to subject, stuff like that. Is duality like a central theme of the show or sumthin?

[Umlaut]

Not in the new car...

My new Mad Men crush: Salvatore's long-suffering wife.

[ReverendMediocre]

I HATE THAT BITCH JANE!!!11

[crlygrl]

I yelled at the TV a little when Betty dumped all their trash on the ground. The audacity.

[yumitree]

me too. i kept telling myself it's 1962, but i was appalled.
i'd rather watch a mad men where everyone wore a damn fat suit than watch more wanton littering.

[theodoric]

The last scene was their comeuppance. Betty horking in Don's new Cad was Betty's penance for littering, and Don's for gettin' down with whatshisname's wife.

[helloitslate]

me too. i kept telling myself it's 1962, but i was appalled.
.

Yeah that was so blatant But still, I asked my grandparents and they were appalled, they were like we always threw away our trash. So the Drapers are just dirty...

[theodoric]

So the Drapers are just dirty...
Symptomatic of their lives in general.

[daveunfun]

me too. i kept telling myself it's 1962, but i was appalled.
i'd rather watch a mad men where everyone wore a damn fat suit than watch more wanton littering.

I thought it was hilarious because it came right after the daughter asked if they are rich. And then Don hurls his beer can like something a rich, spoiled person would do. It reminded me of 'Anchorman' when Ron Burgundy chucks the burrito out of his car window.

For some reason, the idea that people didn't care about littering before the whole recycling movement is always funny to me.

[ArtsyMcShitshimself]

I felt so clever for knowing that Salvatore was gay all first season until I realized it was obvious to everyone else as well.

[nathansmart]

When I was younger I loved to throw a pop can or bottle after I was done drinking it. It's always fun to see how far you can throw something, or to see something float in a river. Of course, I know better now, but I still get the urge.

The picnic trash is the one that really struck me as crazy. I would even say that it was a bit too much for this show - how could such neat people, with a clean house like theirs feel completely okay with trashing a park that they are peacefully enjoying like that? I've seen people leave trash at a park, and they are NOT people like the Drapers, that's all I'm sayin'.

[mezmorized]

there's a flashback where a doctor tells peggy that she had a baby - unless they are lying to her there's your proof

No I'm not questioning that she had the baby, I'm questioning where it went. The baby we could have been seeing could have been her sister's baby.

[nathansmart]

What about when they tell her to say goodnight to the baby and all the awkwardness she goes through when she holds it in church?

I get what you're saying, but I think it would be a stretch for them to use THIS much setup.

[jeffwatt]

When I was younger I loved to throw a pop can or bottle after I was done drinking it. It's always fun to see how far you can throw something, or to see something float in a river. Of course, I know better now, but I still get the urge.

The picnic trash is the one that really struck me as crazy. I would even say that it was a bit too much for this show - how could such neat people, with a clean house like theirs feel completely okay with trashing a park that they are peacefully enjoying like that? I've seen people leave trash at a park, and they are NOT people like the Drapers, that's all I'm sayin'.

When you become rich at the level of a Mr. Cooper, you become an asshole.

By the way, maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention, but in Season One, I thought Cooper came off way more laid back than he is in this season, what with his abstract art and sit-down rich meetings with Don. Did I misread him in the first season?

[nathansmart]

What tipped me off was his friendship with Ayn Rand. Anyone that follows her is an a--hole.

[angryrobot]

Cooper is the most interesting character in the show by far. I've read a lot about the history of advertising and PR and back in the 50's was when a handful of powerful people were just figuring out the power of advertising to not only sell widgets but control the masses. Cooper obviously understands the big picture in a way that Don Draper is still figuring out. Cooper knows he is nothing without Draper's talent. Don is going through the struggle all talented men go through when they are being romanced by the forces of evil.

[ReverendMediocre]

Have they addressed Betties hand condition since her car accident? Has it just been chocked up to her psychological issues?

[nadsat droog]

Have they addressed Betties hand condition since her car accident? Has it just been chocked up to her psychological issues?

I read somewhere that her hand was shaking in the stable when that guy came onto her a few episodes back. I didn't notice it, but I haven't gone back to check either.

The short flashback in the past episode was really interesting. It set us up to find out how much covering up Don had to do to assume the real Don's identity.

[Ivan]

Crosspost!

Aceyalone & RJD2 - A Beautiful Mine (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=8VPLV58M)

aka the theme from Mad Men but with RAPPIN

[dan telfer]

Have they addressed Betties hand condition since her car accident? Has it just been chocked up to her psychological issues?

This has been bugging the hell out of me. Considering how played up that condition was and how it was the whole reason she spent season 1 in therapy, I think they've really left that plot out to dry in a bothersome way. I was really expecting a seizure or something by now.

There's a lot of minor plots they drop and leave hanging in the air (the redhead friend Betty slapped in the grocery, Joan's ridiculously overcomplicated personal history, minor characters' wives etc) but that one bit of business about Betty nearly killing her family twice a day and suddenly being reduced to bi-annual shakes seems really unusual. She's crazed and high-strung right now, how is it not manifesting if it's simply stress induced? It almost doesn't matter now that it's been over an entire season- I'll be surprised if it's ever addressed.

It also bothers me that Betty suddenly has a crazy obsession about an affair with zero evidence.

And WTF with smashing that chair and nothing coming of it??

I am enjoying Peggy's atheism. As a humanist atheist it's cathartic to see a rare character going through the sort of thing I go through. I am just clenching my teeth waiting for the inevitable conversion. If they keep playing her character so honestly, I'll be really impressed.

[nathansmart]

It also bothers me that Betty suddenly has a crazy obsession about an affair with zero evidence.

Zero evidence? In the first season doesn't she tell her therapist that she knows that he's having an affair? She seems to just keep suspecting it - and then when Jimmy Barrett lets her in on it and she sees them talking the way they do, I think it's okay to think something's going on. And she can't get any answers out of him on any other issue, why should she believe him on anything he says?

I mean guess you could say there's zero evidence but I think evidence doesn't just involve lipstick smears.

I am enjoying Peggy's atheism. As a humanist atheist it's cathartic to see a rare character going through the sort of thing I go through. I am just clenching my teeth waiting for the inevitable conversion. If they keep playing her character so honestly, I'll be really impressed.

Would a conversion not be an honest move?

[angryrobot]

I am enjoying Peggy's atheism. As a humanist atheist it's cathartic to see a rare character going through the sort of thing I go through. I am just clenching my teeth waiting for the inevitable conversion.

I get the opposite sense. This looks to me to be heading fto a "Thorn Birds" conclusion.

[charles star]

[Dropping the Betty's-tremors arc] has been bugging the hell out of me. Considering how played up that condition was and how it was the whole reason she spent season 1 in therapy, I think they've really left that plot out to dry in a bothersome way. I was really expecting a seizure or something by now. ... She's crazed and high-strung right now, how is it not manifesting if it's simply stress induced?

It also bothers me that Betty suddenly has a crazy obsession about an affair with zero evidence.

And WTF with smashing that chair and nothing coming of it??

As nathan pointed out, there is more than zero evidence - there is the cuckolded husband ratting Don out, the different ways that Don interacts with her and Bobbie, his history of infidelity, his inability to consummate (with her), the odd car crash near Stony Brook and her not-incorrect belief that Don sees her as nothing more than arm-candy for his advertising job.

The reason she doesn't have tremors now is because they weren't caused by stress, they were caused by repression. As someone mentioned, she trembled a little with Arthur in the stable because she wanted to have an affair but can't. She went through a manic pockets-searching-chair-breaking-not-showering phase but was totally put together at breakfast and when she told Don to enjoy his break-room Heineken.

I am enjoying Peggy's atheism. As a humanist atheist it's cathartic to see a rare character going through the sort of thing I go through. I am just clenching my teeth waiting for the inevitable conversion. If they keep playing her character so honestly, I'll be really impressed.
I'm not sure I'd go with 'atheism.' Peggy is definitely not as interested in religion as her family/community but I wouldn't necessarily say that she has abandoned religion. I would have pegged her as upset with God, not a non-believer. Her buttoned-up attire and prim manner suggest to me that she hasn't completely left behind the moral shackles of the church.

I see the Thorn Birds writing on the wall also but I hope that they don't go there. It would be very soap-y and not at all in keeping with the tone of the show.

I am more interested in seeing how Joan reacts to getting passed over (not even considered, really) for the script-reader job. She didn't seem interested in her fiancee's idea of a bon-bon life and clearly saw an opportunity to advance in the firm like Peggy did.

[nathansmart]

I haven't seen or read Thorn Birds - can we get an idea of what you guys are talking about?

[angryrobot]

Sorry, guess that's an over 40 reference. Basically that Peggy and the preacher are going to get it on. Is that another 70's reference? I doubt very much the show is going to go there as well but I'm pretty sure that path will be explored in more of a Sam and Diane fashion (80's reference) but the story line is getting old to me. Either go down one road or another or end it, it's just dragging right now.

The Joan storyline didn't have much of a buildup at all. One episode she's quite content with her roll as queen hen the next she wants to advance into the man's world. I would like to have seen a little more of a base for this change in attitude. Maybe show her becoming disillusioned with her dream of becoming a housewife first to make this hopeful transition a little more believable. After all her tough talk to Peggy about not competing in a man's world this quick change of heart was a little hollow to me.

[nathansmart]

I figured that's what you guys meant but I didn't feel like reading the entire Wikipedia entry to confirm. It probably won't happen, but didn't this guy already write a story like that for the Sopranos?

[charles star]

The Joan storyline didn't have much of a buildup at all. One episode she's quite content with her roll as queen hen the next she wants to advance into the man's world. I would like to have seen a little more of a base for this change in attitude. Maybe show her becoming disillusioned with her dream of becoming a housewife first to make this hopeful transition a little more believable. After all her tough talk to Peggy about not competing in a man's world this quick change of heart was a little hollow to me.
I think it has been building all season: She ended the relationship with Sterling; was "outed" as a single woman over 30 - so despite the killer bod, we are supposed to know that the other secretaries see her as a spinster; Sterling undermined her with Don's 20 year old secretary; she got snippy with Peggy for bitching about being left out of the men's club because Peggy didn't get that to get ahead as a woman she had to utilize her sexuality, not mute it; as a script reader she actually got a taste of what it was like to have her opinion respected while still being drooled over.

It all adds up to her discovery that she should pursue more than just dominance of the secretarial pool and the realization that she should have been thinking that all along. She started to feel complete and then it was all taken away by someone who didn't even realize that he had given her something.

[dan telfer]

Maybe honest isn't the right word, but I feel what tension/character has been built up is about not identifying with Christianity, and if she gave in it would be a cop out. I choose to call it atheism, because I identify with it more that way. I don't really care if it's more agnostic or "relaxed Christian" that she's resembling to other people. I get nothing out of that insight as a viewer. But because you don't ever see atheists "survive" pressure to assimilate into Christian culture on television, I have interest invested in my interpretation. If that makes sense.

Anyway, I do think some real evidence would help. Just for me. I get the mounting tension without lack of evidence, but she's slipping into divorce-ville without anything and I think that's a little unlike her character. I'd expect her to at least try spying on him or do more homework before jumping to that conclusion.

I also don't buy the stress versus repression thing. The lack of shaking hands doesn't work for me on that theory.

[nathansmart]

Maybe honest isn't the right word, but I feel what tension/character has been built up is about not identifying with Christianity, and if she gave in it would be a cop out. I choose to call it atheism, because I identify with it more that way. I don't really care if it's more agnostic or "relaxed Christian" that she's resembling to other people. I get nothing out of that insight as a viewer. But because you don't ever see atheists "survive" pressure to assimilate into Christian culture on television, I have interest invested in my interpretation. If that makes sense.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd buy her converting either, I was just wondered what you meant by honesty.

Anyway, I do think some real evidence would help. Just for me. I get the mounting tension without lack of evidence, but she's slipping into divorce-ville without anything and I think that's a little unlike her character. I'd expect her to at least try spying on him or do more homework before jumping to that conclusion.

But, isn't it true that often times the fall is quicker than the rise? It seems as if they've been building her up since the first season to have her seams come loose. Sometimes it just hits you and the world looks like it's up against you when just an hour ago you were playing Rock Band and writing messages on a comedy message board. I mean.. I'm just sayin'... I can see her hitting that wall.

I also don't buy the stress versus repression thing. The lack of shaking hands doesn't work for me on that theory.

Well, that theory was personally delivered, via email, from Mr. Wiener to charles so I guess you'll just have to deal with it.

[Jouster]

Question for everyone: do you believe Duck is off the wagon?

[crlygrl]

Not yet. But he will be.

I'm still pissed off about his dog.

[charles star]

Question for everyone: do you believe Duck is off the wagon?

I think he had a weak moment and then righted the ship (poor Chauncey) - but I see him diving back in the bottle from the 10 meter platform when another verybadthing rocks him in the next episode or two.

Who was Crab Colson? I must have missed it when they identified him.

[dan telfer]

I think when he left that dog outside to fend for itself, he took a long weepy drink.

But it's loose ends like that that are driving me crazy. Unlike The Wire, they don't tend to bring little plots back like that, they just leave you wondering. Not a fan of that writing style. Bring your subplots back, at least later in a season if not for a couple episodes later.

[crlygrl]

How is that a huge loose end? Can't you just take some of these things as what they are? They're events that in these characters' lives which you are witnessing. Sometimes they're only there to help you understand the character better... Maybe nothing ever happened after Betty slapped that lady at the store. Or Duck really has been going on with his life after ditching is dog like that. How exactly would you tie up those "loose ends"?

The Wire, although I liked it, tied things up a little too neatly if you ask me. And the things you're talking about are not necessarily subplots, just windows into these people's lives.

[charles star]

How is that a huge loose end? Can't you just take some of these things as what they are? ... Or Duck really has been going on with his life after ditching is dog like that. How exactly would you tie up those "loose ends"?
I like that the show can have an alcoholic take a drink and then catch himself before he stumbles instead of automatically showing the guy falling asleep at a meeting with two days of beard, stinking of scotch. His deterioration can be as slow as Betty's.

I like this show a lot more when they don't waste my time mythologizing/eulogizing the 1950's ad industry and instead analyze the era through the characters themselves.

[Jouster]

Who was Crab Colson? I must have missed it when they identified him.

He was the PR guy Don spoke to at the country club a couple episodes back.

[dan telfer]

How is that a huge loose end? Can't you just take some of these things as what they are? They're events that in these characters' lives which you are witnessing. Sometimes they're only there to help you understand the character better... Maybe nothing ever happened after Betty slapped that lady at the store. Or Duck really has been going on with his life after ditching is dog like that. How exactly would you tie up those "loose ends"?

The Wire, although I liked it, tied things up a little too neatly if you ask me. And the things you're talking about are not necessarily subplots, just windows into these people's lives.

I'd tie it up by referencing the person Duck is when he drinks, which I don't think they're going to do. You know, just showing "what he's like in the afternoon" in an episode. But I bet you never see it. I bet that was his episode to show this one trait of his, and that's that.

One of the most frustrating things abotu this show for me is how many "character snapshots" we see, without the consequences or conclusions ever being shown. An episode will be dedicated to a momentous time in a minor character's life, but there are so many minor characters that the next time you really see them they're months along and you don't know what happened since their "big moment".

If you think The Wire wrapped things up a little too neatly, then you and I watch TV for very different reasons, and I am fine with that.

I still like this show, for the record. I just get a little frustrated by the writing style sometimes. It's interesting to watch, but I'm constantly going "wait... so what the hell happened with so and so?!? it's just over?"

I feel like this show is written with the expectation that it will be on the air for 20 seasons and everything will pay off. It makes me antsy.

[KeithTalent]

I'm not sure I'd go with 'atheism.' Peggy is definitely not as interested in religion as her family/community but I wouldn't necessarily say that she has abandoned religion. I would have pegged her as upset with God, not a non-believer. Her buttoned-up attire and prim manner suggest to me that she hasn't completely left behind the moral shackles of the church.

Just because someone loses faith they don't immediately lose all the guilt they were raised with.

[chapina]

Just because someone loses faith they don't immediately lose all the guilt they were raised with.

Or all the guilt they have over (theoretically) giving up their child and denying to everyone under the sun they ever had said child. I think the church is the only thing making her feel bad for what she did.
Everywhere she looks in the "secular" world people are getting away with all kinds of things. Her religious upbringing is the only thing reminding her that she did a crappy thing. (This is assuming her sister is raising the baby as her own.)

[jeffwatt]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd buy her converting either, I was just wondered what you meant by honesty.



But, isn't it true that often times the fall is quicker than the rise? It seems as if they've been building her up since the first season to have her seams come loose. Sometimes it just hits you and the world looks like it's up against you when just an hour ago you were playing Rock Band and writing messages on a comedy message board. I mean.. I'm just sayin'... I can see her hitting that wall.



Well, that theory was personally delivered, via email, from Mr. Wiener to charles so I guess you'll just have to deal with it.


I think what set her off on divorce path is the closer proximity to his actual affair. I can't recall if she ever saw Don and Rachel Menken in the same room together, but she did see Don and Bobbie and have Jimmy Barrett push it in her face at that party last week. Outside of Don and the kids, it's not like Betty has any confidants. So, for him to make verbal a concern she's no doubt had in the back of her mind, I think that was enough to start the latest bout of paranoia.

I loved this episode because I got to root for Bettie and Joan, two characters I don't usually care for. I was all "No, you di'int" when that A-hole was being interviewed for Joan's job.

[dan telfer]

Her religious upbringing is the only thing reminding her that she did a crappy thing.

I 100% disagree. I believe people are born with a moral compass and develop a moral code unique of a religious upbringing. She is capable of feeling grief and guilt without a social construct having taught her rules to compare her actions against.

[ericluxury]

I think you protest too much, Dan. We just finished episode 8 of this season. If you think of it as a 12 hour movie, we are still very much in act 2.
In season 1 lots of things paid off. Betty's nerves lead to her confession and crying in the parking lot. Harry's being treated like/feeling like the square for being married paid off. Lots of things paid off. I remember wondering where they could go and how they could continue a season 2.
Betty's nervous shaking generally came when she was uncertain and fearful. When she saw the single mother on the block, she couldn't tell if that could be her future. To me it struck me as the symptom of someone scared that her fear of the current situation will never end into the future. I don't know what happened in those 2 years, but Betty seems to have some sense of control. She faced her husband down, she has something in her life (horse-back riding) that isn't controlled by her husband that she loves. There is a sense of confidence that she didn't have in season 1. I don't think shaking hands would fit with where she is.

[chapina]

I 100% disagree. I believe people are born with a moral compass and develop a moral code unique of a religious upbringing. She is capable of feeling grief and guilt without a social construct having taught her rules to compare her actions against.

I don't disagree with you, but I think the time and place that this show takes place in doesn't allow for that. I feel like we're watching how all these roles/feelings/positions in life completely break from tradition and obligation. Right now, IMO, Peggy is having a hell of time reconciling her faith (or faith-based upbringing) and her role on Madison Ave where no one seems to have a moral compass faith-based or otherwise. I just think religion vs madison ave are her only reference points right now.

[nathansmart]

I 100% disagree. I believe people are born with a moral compass and develop a moral code unique of a religious upbringing. She is capable of feeling grief and guilt without a social construct having taught her rules to compare her actions against.

So you think that a person will have the same moral code no matter how they were raised? The same person will still think sex before marriage is wrong if they were raised by atheist parents?

EDIT: I should say that I agree that people ultimately develop their own moral code but I don't think it's entirely independent and unique of their religious upbringing (except in the case where it's an outright rejection).

[dan telfer]

Well, I think you guys are confusing the two ideas I brought up.

People are born with a moral compass. They know what is right and what is wrong. A church doesn't have to tell you that sleeping around or kicking children in the balls is bad; if you do those things you feel like shit regardless. That does not mean people listen to their moral compass, or are mature enough to develop a moral code (I will stop sleeping around because it hurts others, I will stop kicking children in the balls because no matter how funny it is children shouldn't be assaulted, etc). Naturally, religion teaches a moral code (commandments, etc) but what I am saying is that a person can abandon religion and still have a system of rules in mind regarding what is right and what is wrong without "copying" religion's rules (commandments, etc).

So, is it hard, rare, or unusual for Peggy to have developed a moral code and be unreligious back then? Sure, I suppose. But I don't believe religion was ever necessary to know the difference between right and wrong. I think Peggy was raised religiously, but either she was never that attached to it or the trauma of a surprise birth or that made her lose her faith. I think assuming that losing ones faith is a bad or temporary thing is the assumption I'm hoping the show doesn't make. I think it can be a natural part of an individual finding one's self and I'm interested to see where they take it. Certainly, as chapina pointed out, the times made it incredibly difficult to be an optimistic, functioning adult with a moral code and have no religion. But I know it can be done, and the idea of being a moral atheist is a lot older than 1960, even if it wasn't popular back then.

Another term I think can get muddy is "faith". I have faith in a lot of things, but that doesn't mean it's spiritual for me.

I dunno, I hope I'm not being too obnoxious. I just think there's something interesting in the way Peggy has dealt with the church so far in that she knows going will make her family happy and that there's something to be said for voluteering to help people there, and yet when directly confronted she clearly doesn't have faith in the idea of God. She's come very close to telling her priest something. Clearly in 1962 admitting you're an atheist in that environment is social suicide, but the show hasn't made clear whether Peggy is going to continue down one path or the other. I'm just saying I find one path more interesting. The other path is she gets "saved" or whatever you want to call it, and that's fine. I just think it's well-tread and lame at this point.

[nathansmart]

People are born with a moral compass. They know what is right and what is wrong. A church doesn't have to tell you that sleeping around or kicking children in the balls is bad; if you do those things you feel like shit regardless. That does not mean people listen to their moral compass, or are mature enough to develop a moral code (I will stop sleeping around because it hurts others, I will stop kicking children in the balls because no matter how funny it is children shouldn't be assaulted, etc). Naturally, religion teaches a moral code (commandments, etc) but what I am saying is that a person can abandon religion and still have a system of rules in mind regarding what is right and what is wrong without "copying" religion's rules (commandments, etc).

Do you believe that there are things that are always wrong across the board? Or do you think that everyone's moral compass is just that - their own.

I'm just saying I find one path more interesting.

I'd like to see them address it this way as well.

[dan telfer]

I think most people's moral compasses are very similar. There's obviously variations, and people have their own varied ability to articulate and understand them and "develop a coda" so to speak. But I think certain things like "you shouldn't hurt others or yourself" and "take responsibility for your actions" are instinctive. So, on the topic, I think Peggy definitely knows the situation with her child isn't right, but I think she can reach that conclusion without religion.

Clearly Peggy's family is religous but has a screwed up moral code. Her sister in particular is religious, but full of hatred and jealousy (she was pregnant when she visited Peggy at the hospital- was it a miscarriage?). I'd like to think we're shown the hypocrisy in Peggy's family so we can see how Peggy seperates in her own mind the difference between being religious and being a good person by observing them so closely. The big question, I think, is will the pain of delivering that baby and being mentally and socially unprepared to raise it cause her to snap? Clearly her family isn't going to keep helping her forever. Even when she recommitted to going to church her sister tried to sabotage the relationship with the priest. It's only a matter of time before Peggy is outed or outs herself and I think that eats at her more than religion.

[nathansmart]

I think most people's moral compasses are very similar. There's obviously variations, and people have their own varied ability to articulate and understand them and "develop a coda" so to speak. But I think certain things like "you shouldn't hurt others or yourself" and "take responsibility for your actions" are instinctive. So, on the topic, I think Peggy definitely knows the situation with her child isn't right, but I think she can reach that conclusion without religion.

I think in our culture those things are instinctive (although there are those who don't have those instincts and it doesn't affect them at all to get rid of their kid in a dumpster) but I don't think it's that way in every culture.

Clearly Peggy's family is religous but has a screwed up moral code. Her sister in particular is religious, but full of hatred and jealousy (she was pregnant when she visited Peggy at the hospital- was it a miscarriage?). I'd like to think we're shown the hypocrisy in Peggy's family so we can see how Peggy seperates in her own mind the difference between being religious and being a good person by observing them so closely. The big question, I think, is will the pain of delivering that baby and being mentally and socially unprepared to raise it cause her to snap? Clearly her family isn't going to keep helping her forever. Even when she recommitted to going to church her sister tried to sabotage the relationship with the priest. It's only a matter of time before Peggy is outed or outs herself and I think that eats at her more than religion.

Peggy is such an interesting character because she's presented as a pearly individual and then all of the sudden she'll just say or do something that kills all that. I can never tell if she's the one we're all supposed to be rooting for - the good guy. And if not her, then who?

*I guess I should disclose that I am a christian but I'm not trying to sabotage you or reel you into some trick question or something. I just believe in god-given absolute morals and so I like to talk with people who don't and see how they define them.

[dan telfer]

Yeah, I think being born with a moral compass spans all cultures , not just ours (by instinctive I mean it's inborn, not learned), so we'll have to agree to disagree.

...Just like Peggy and her church?!!?

[nathansmart]

AAAAAAHHHHH! real monsters

[crlygrl]

Nah, what some people see as perfectly moral and justifiable in other cultures might seem completely savage to us.

Also, Peggy has a country mouse vs city mouse personality clash in addition to her recently repressed memories/secrets. The Church is just one way of illustrating her "old" life vs her new one.

I think you should try to relax and enjoy the show. You seem to be expecting that the show will reveal every secret, connect every dot... when it doesn't need to. In that way, it's better than other TV shows out there. It's a running narrative about a bunch of people and the underlying social landscape of the 60's. Rather than having storyline after storyline after storyline that gets resolved like you might see in other shows, it leaves some room for our brains to a little heavy lifting in understanding the complexity of the characters.

[angryrobot]

Ok let's get into this,

Dan how do you justify so many fundamentalist Christians being pro-war in this country? I think the only instinct people are born with is an urge to survive like every other animal. Civilization is taught to each individual member of society and people decide not to kill or steal because it's good for the survival of society and thus their own. This is the social contract. When people feel they are not getting their fair shake from this social contract they act outside of society for their own survival. I think religion is just another facet of society - created by the powerful - to keep the poor from rebelling against society when they inevitably overreach. You see, people should rebel against a society when some try to take more than they need but religion interferes with that. At least that's my opinion of a healthy society.

[dan telfer]

crlygrl, I am happy to stop interfering with other people's ability to relax and enjoy this show. And I tried to differentiate what I see as a culture's morals and an individual's morals, but clearly that didn't stick. As I said, sorry if I'm being obnoxious. But I like this show too, and I'm passionate about the things I like, so I will pass on your suggestion to "relax". I'm not exactly red in the face. You're entitled to your own less personal take on this tiny part of the show, and I never meant to imply otherwise. I think nathansmart and I took that conversation well beyond where it needed to go. I hope it was at least interesting for him.

Obviously I disagree with your points, angryrobot, so how's about we don't ruin this thread for everyone and we not bring religion's evils against society into the discussion. I'm as anti-war as anyone, but I don't think that has enough to do with Mad Men that I care to discuss it here.

[nathansmart]

Ok let's get into this,

Dan how do you justify so many fundamentalist Christians being pro-war in this country? I think the only instinct people are born with is an urge to survive like every other animal. Civilization is taught to each individual member of society and people decide not to kill or steal because it's good for the survival of society and thus their own. This is the social contract. When people feel they are not getting their fair shake from this social contract they act outside of society for their own survival. I think religion is just another facet of society - created by the powerful - to keep the poor from rebelling against society when they inevitably overreach. You see, people should rebel against a society when some try to take more than they need but religion interferes with that. At least that's my opinion of a healthy society.

While I think religion is used by the powerful to control people, I don't necessarily think it's created by them. Are you saying that Jesus was a powerful man in ancient times?

And, I would argue, at least for christianity's sake, that the poor are the elevated ones, not the rich and powerful. They christians (on TV) in America just have it wrong.

EDIT: Yeah, and Dan's right - this isn't the thread, although I'm fascinated with the direction.

[angryrobot]

do you want to start a thread on religion?

here goes

http://aspecialthing.com/forum/showthread.php?p=14614#post14614

[dan telfer]

Not especially. But if you want to start one I may post in it briefly before running away in horror at the unproductive screaming match that inevitably occurs.

Also, I'm not entirely sure but that might be one of those things the moderators/admins don't really want here. Lots of room for hurt feelings. There's a politics thread so who knows- though as long as it is it's rated one Sasquatch. Ack.

[nathansmart]

not with a guy named angryrobot :)

[angryrobot]

Religion and Political discussions are the ONLY things I don't take personal. Now trite formulaic comedy on the other hand...

[yumitree]

it's not like Betty has any confidants.

what about that neighbor she talked to occasionally during season one and who hasn't been seen since? the one she talked to after the slapping incident?

[charles star]

what about that neighbor she talked to occasionally during season one and who hasn't been seen since? the one she talked to after the slapping incident?
I thought that was her horse riding companion.

[yumitree]

it might be... i think i missed the connection because she was pregnant in the first season. so i didn't put two and two together.

but she and her husband sure did!

[Jouster]

what about that neighbor she talked to occasionally during season one and who hasn't been seen since? the one she talked to after the slapping incident?

Francine. She's been in at least two episodes this year; Betty talked to her about seeing her old roommate-turned-prostitute, and her and her husband came over and played cards. Those were both early in the season, but I'm sure she'll appear again.

I thought that was her horse riding companion.

No, she's someone else. Her name is Sara Beth.

[jeffwatt]

Francine. She's been in at least two episodes this year; Betty talked to her about seeing her old roommate-turned-prostitute, and her and her husband came over and played cards. Those were both early in the season, but I'm sure she'll appear again.



No, she's someone else. Her name is Sara Beth.



At any rate, she's got like two friends she can kinda, sorta talk to. But up til now she's been very consumed with keeping up appearances (especially badmouthing her fat ass daughter), so I don't think Betty's been dishing the dirt on her potentially no good husband. It's always been talk about someone else's problems (prostitute ex roommate, slutty new neighbor, etc) , not hers.

That being said, I'm sure there was a barely remembered 45 second long scene tucked in the middle of a first season episode that contradicts all of this.

[theodoric]

kicking children in the balls is bad.
No one ever told me this.

Uh-oh.

[dan telfer]

It's okay, there is no hell.

Anyway, looking forward to next week. Spoiler alert? In the preview of next weeks episode it sounds like some Peggy/Pete shit comes to a head. Thank fucking goodness, Pete needs to get shivved ASAP.

[Jouster]

Just in case anyone didn't hear, they moved the whole season back a week because of the Emmys, apparently. No new episode this Sunday, but back on track the following Sunday through the end of the season.

[nathansmart]

I started feeling the tiniest bid sorry for Pete and then he cheats on his wife and feels good about it.

But, I still feel bad for him when Don Draper treats him like dirt just for trying to talk to his boss. I had a boss like that so I can relate.

[dan telfer]

NYC improviser/graphic designer Dyna Moe has been having some fun with Mad Men (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nobodyssweetheart/2864106466/in/photostream/).

[ReverendMediocre]

I'm still confused about the end of the episode.. did Betty realize something when she saw Jimmy on TV? Or was it just the sight of him that made her think of everything and realize she didn't want to see Don for some time?

[nathansmart]

She was pissed that Pardo didn't get the part too.

[ReverendMediocre]

Man.. that would have been amazing..

It's funny to revisit the episode he talks about the audition though, just the emphasis in "WAAAY out my league", ... I don't know if I'd say it was out of his league, but "Nightclub Comedian" turned out to be a significant and pivotal role in the series..

10:1 Jimmy talks Jon into doing the infamous grabby-grabby scene in the restroom with Bobbi on Jimmy instead..

[angryrobot]

I'm still confused about the end of the episode.. did Betty realize something when she saw Jimmy on TV? Or was it just the sight of him that made her think of everything and realize she didn't want to see Don for some time?

Maybe it has something to do with the Utz. Maybe Betty was trying to think of why Bobbie would seduce her husband and maybe she put two and two together that she needed Don to get Utz to sponsor the tv show. Just a guess.

[dan telfer]

Boy, that ending would have made a lot more sense if she'd found some lipstick on his collar or something, wouldn't it?

[chapina]

I'm still confused about the end of the episode.. did Betty realize something when she saw Jimmy on TV? Or was it just the sight of him that made her think of everything and realize she didn't want to see Don for some time?

I think it reminded her about the public manner in which Don's cheating. Remember, she doesn't bring up this whole cheating thing until after Don embarrasses her in front of her guests. She hates looking stupid.
I think the fact that she found out from Jimmy made her feel really stupid and like everyone knew except her. IMO, finding lipstick on his collar alone might not have made her so angry. I'm not saying she'd take it, I just think the public factor carries a lot of weight for her.

If she had found evidence after her accusations you'd know that she's kicking him out because he cheated. End of story. But I think she kicked him out because she thinks he's cheating and because he made a fool of her in front of others. Plus I like the idea of seeing where that bit of doubt and wanting to believe Don/ the perfect life will take the character.

[jeffwatt]

I'm still confused about the end of the episode.. did Betty realize something when she saw Jimmy on TV? Or was it just the sight of him that made her think of everything and realize she didn't want to see Don for some time?

I think perhaps had she not seen the commercial, she would have just swallowed her anger, let the bastard back in the house, and waited for the next fight to boil over.

I'd like to think of the Utz potato chip commercial as her own personal WWJD bracelet that pushed her to stand her ground.

[Babychoby]

I'm still confused about the end of the episode.. did Betty realize something when she saw Jimmy on TV? Or was it just the sight of him that made her think of everything and realize she didn't want to see Don for some time?

I think that Don's absolute refusal to fess up and her not being able to find any evidence of the affair was making her question her sanity. Then you have this whacked out commercial with Jimmy talking about "I'm so fucking crazy" or whatever made her snap.

[ReverendMediocre]

This post was ill advised and no forethought was put into its obscenely stupid remarks. It has been removed because the indignity of admitting I was so stupid is preferable to the remarkably dumb question I asked.

[daveunfun]

I think that Don's absolute refusal to fess up and her not being able to find any evidence of the affair was making her question her sanity. Then you have this whacked out commercial with Jimmy talking about "I'm so fucking crazy" or whatever made her snap.

It's funny, because I thought Betty was going to go other way when she saw that commercial. "Why should I trust this guy, he's a nut!"

[Famous Police Dog]

this thing won some award tonight

[KeithTalent]

Christina Hendricks' dress wins an award, from my pants. Cross your fingers that she shows for the ceremony.

[littlegirltree]

Vote: YES
<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/littlegirltree/AST/?action=view&current=hend1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/littlegirltree/AST/hend1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Vote:NOooooo!
<a href="http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/littlegirltree/AST/?action=view&current=hend2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b342/littlegirltree/AST/hend2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

[Scammy Davis Boogah Jr.]

My new favorite thing, courtesy of

http://www.nobodyssweetheart.com/index.html

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/1023/bettypf5.jpg" border="0" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us"/></a><br/><a href="http://g.imageshack.us/img389/bettypf5.jpg/1/"><img src="http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/bettypf5.jpg/1/w500.png" border="0"></a>

[dan telfer]

NYC improviser/graphic designer Dyna Moe has been having some fun with Mad Men (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nobodyssweetheart/2864106466/in/photostream/).

Linked earlier in the thread, SUCKER!

[Scammy Davis Boogah Jr.]

Ah crud. Props to you then.

Do we have an over/under on how long before Jenny lets us know what that's a tribute to?

[dan telfer]

For those who don't know, sometimes Jenny likes to spell things out for everyone.

[charles star]

For those who don't know, sometimes Jenny likes to spell things out for everyone.
I see what you did there.

[mike]

Why no new episode this week?

[jeffwatt]

Why no new episode this week?

They were too busy winning emmys this week.

The show is done live, right?

[Darryl]

Whew...

I've been wanting to get into Mad Men, but every time I would turn it on, I knew I was coming into it in the middle of the story arc, and sometimes that can be hard for me to get into. So....

My local Hastings had the pre-viewed Season One set for sale cheap. I bought them and have spent this weekend on a Mad Men marathon. HOLY CRAP-ON-A-BISCUIT is this a great show. The writing is incredible. The way the story elements are introduced subtly for great payoff later is fantastic. It gives me the same reaction I get when watching The Wire; sometimes I just laugh out loud, not because of something overtly humorous, but just out of the cleverness of it.

Now I have to catch up with season 2...

[angryrobot]

Can someone help me out. What does Sterling say to Draper in the bar right before he hits him on the shoulder and Draper says "that's true". "We'll _____ together, huh". What was that word??? Is it just my hearing, tv or are important lines mumbled all the time on this show?

[Darryl]

Can someone help me out. What does Sterling say to Draper in the bar right before he hits him on the shoulder and Draper says "that's true". "We'll _____ together, huh". What was that word??? Is it just my hearing, tv or are important lines mumbled all the time on this show?

Which episode? The new one tonight?

And, yes, important things are mumbled all the time! It's the plague of "natural" acting that forces many people to turn on captions when watching a show.

[angryrobot]

yeah the new one tonight.

[Darryl]

OK, just watched it on my Tifaux. For some reason, I can't get my closed caption to work.

But I'm pretty sure he says "We're in it together, [something]."

It sounds like "We're in it together, Huff." It's almost as if he is quoting someone else. I haven't seen the earlier Season 2 episodes, so maybe it's a reference to something in an earlier episode, which is pretty common in this series. In any case, I'm sure the "we're in it together" part is right.

[Valorie]

I love that he punched that guy. I totally called it! Though, I think that punch should've been the other way around.

When is Betty gonna DO THAT GUY from the stables??? I'm sure she wouldn't because she's a proper house wife, but I really want it to happen.

[Jouster]

Can someone help me out. What does Sterling say to Draper in the bar right before he hits him on the shoulder and Draper says "that's true". "We'll _____ together, huh". What was that word??? Is it just my hearing, tv or are important lines mumbled all the time on this show?

"We're in it together, huh?"

[suavepebble]

You guys haven't talked about the moment with the most levels yet:

"Sorry Don, it's funny."

"Sure... it's just a man's name, right?"

Mad Men is on levels.

[mezmorized]

When is Betty gonna DO THAT GUY from the stables??? I'm sure she wouldn't because she's a proper house wife, but I really want it to happen.

After she set up her friend, it's probably not going to happen, with that guy specifically. I still think she's going to have an affair, I just think it's less likely to be that guy now.

I really like this episode (and ultimately the show even more), if only for the fact that after all of Don's affairs, when Betty finally calls Don out, I feel no sympathy for her. When Don brings home the kids in the new episode and he's being charming to the kids and he wants to come home and she wouldn't let him, I was angry at her. What has Weiner done to me? I can't feel sympathy for the woman who has every right to never let Don back into their home.

I will say setting up her friend with the guy from the stables is a move in the right direction for Betty. She's going to start regaining her territory back. Who knows how much Don will be a part of that. She might not even have an affair and forgive Don through some twisted way. Remember not only is Don's world of the clean cut 50's falling apart, but so is Betty's view of what a woman/housewife should be. I should also mention Weiner talked about how he read The Feminine Mystique and Sex and the Single Girl in the same week and how it was influence for the women in the show. Sex and the Single Girl came out in May 1962 (Monroe dies in August of 1962)...

[nathansmart]

I was still angry at Don during that scene - it seems like to me that all she wants is the truth from him - or at least, that would be some sort of therapeutic thing for; something satisfying.

I don't know - I just don't know what you're supposed to do in those situations. Do you just file the papers the next day? or do you wait and see if you're going to work it out? I'd like to think that I would try to work it out and figure out what's really going on, but I don't know what I would do if my wife cheated on me.

There's so much "immorality" in this show that it's hard to root for anybody 100% of the time - like real life, I suppose.

[Valorie]

After she set up her friend, it's probably not going to happen, with that guy specifically. I still think she's going to have an affair, I just think it's less likely to be that guy now.

I really like this episode (and ultimately the show even more), if only for the fact that after all of Don's affairs, when Betty finally calls Don out, I feel no sympathy for her. When Don brings home the kids in the new episode and he's being charming to the kids and he wants to come home and she wouldn't let him, I was angry at her. What has Weiner done to me? I can't feel sympathy for the woman who has every right to never let Don back into their home.

I will say setting up her friend with the guy from the stables is a move in the right direction for Betty. She's going to start regaining her territory back. Who knows how much Don will be a part of that. She might not even have an affair and forgive Don through some twisted way. Remember not only is Don's world of the clean cut 50's falling apart, but so is Betty's view of what a woman/housewife should be. I should also mention Weiner talked about how he read The Feminine Mystique and Sex and the Single Girl in the same week and how it was influence for the women in the show. Sex and the Single Girl came out in May 1962 (Monroe dies in August of 1962)...

I bet Betty won't. She's too much the proper house wife. I think she'd consider it, probably come close but not go through with it.

I was still mad at Don. I don't particularly like Betty, but I wasn't angry at her. Of course he's going to be charming to the kids and try to move back. A person is usually charming after you've found out they're cheating.

I'm sure they'll get back together eventually. Maybe not until next season.

[Darryl]

I was still angry at Don during that scene - it seems like to me that all she wants is the truth from him - or at least, that would be some sort of therapeutic thing for; something satisfying.

I don't know - I just don't know what you're supposed to do in those situations. Do you just file the papers the next day? or do you wait and see if you're going to work it out? I'd like to think that I would try to work it out and figure out what's really going on, but I don't know what I would do if my wife cheated on me.

There's so much "immorality" in this show that it's hard to root for anybody 100% of the time - like real life, I suppose.

Excellent points.

In the commentary for the one of the Season One episodes on DVD, they talk about how the central challenge of the show to take Don Draper, who really is a weasel and not at all a "good guy," and make the viewer sympathetic to him. And it works. If the writing were not as good as it is, we would either lose sympathy, or feel manipulated. Instead, the feeling I get is that I have empathy for him, because he is somewhat a victim of his past and of his times. I find myself on Draper's side, but also rooting for him to do the right thing.

There's another interesting point in one of the commentaries: that the show is about how the men of that era pursued whatever they wanted, and the women suffered because of it. Again, it's written so well that you don't feel like it's being shoved down your throat.

[TimBuktu]

I just finished season one on dvd, the show is awesome.... any idea how I could get up to speed with season 2?

[Darryl]

I just finished season one on dvd, the show is awesome.... any idea how I could get up to speed with season 2?

I'm in exactly the same boat as you. Hulu has Episode 1 of Season 2 available, but that's all they could get the rights for. The others are available on iTunes at $1.99 each. I'm sure they are also available via BitTorrent, but that's not a reliable (nor legal) way to get them. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and go iTunes.

[nathansmart]

if you have Time Warner digital cable you can catch them on the demand service